couple neatshotguns on Gbroker

[colt thompson]

None of these are mine


US Property Remington 870 Mark 1
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479336589



Winchester 1200 trench
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=479676210

Ithaca riot US marked
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480041124

[scosgt]

Be very very careful. There is a guy on Long Island not far from the sellers location who is infamous for making phony shotguns. The US Property markings look bogus to me. In any case, stay far away unless you really know exactly what you are doing.

[scosgt]

And I am not implying in any way that the seller made a fake shotgun.

[Steve Preston]

The barrel on a Remington 870 Mark 1 should be 21", but it looks like the one on this gun may be only 19" or 20", because it should protrude out beyond the mag tube extension. Also the serial number range is higher than what is listed in Bruce Canfields book by quite a bit.

[scosgt]

The barrel on a Remington 870 Mark 1 should be 23", but it looks like the one on this gun may be only 20" or 21", because it should protrude out beyond the mag tube extension. Also the serial number range is higher than what is listed in Bruce Canfields book by quite a bit.

Like I said...

And I don't know of ANY firearms post WWII that are marked "U S PROPERTY", but that is just me.

[mtrpdw]

There are numerous things wrong with this "USMC M870 Mk.1" - some have already been point out, but to add to it:

•While it's a 1970's manufactured receiver, the serial number is way above the known serial number range for USMC M870 Mk.1's.

•USMC M870 Mk.1 barrels were 21", not 20" as is on the one listed. All USMC 21" barrels were stamped "MOD" for a Modified choke. I suspect the barrel to be a 1970's era Remington 20" rifle sighted "slug/deer" barrel, that someone has removed the brazed on front sight ramp in order to install the Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor. Further proof is that the barrel has no choke stamped on it - 1970's era Remington 20" rifle sight barrels do not have a choke stamped on them.

•The Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor is the early Remington 1-Piece design. USMC 870 Mk.1's had a 2-Piece Adaptor, as the USMC wanted the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning. Only a few very early and prototype USMC 870 Mk.1's had the 1-Piece Adaptor with sight base brazed on (1-Piece Adaptors were normally equipped with a Bead Sight). Additionally, the 1-Piece Adaptors had a razed flange at the rear for the front end of a proposed Heat Shield to secure/slide under. On production guns, the Heat Shield idea was eliminated and the 2-Piece Adaptor adopted for ease of disassembly.

•Additionally, the top of the Front Sight Ramp has not been milled down and the dovetail recut for the front sight. This was done to compensate for the added height the thickness of the Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor created to ensure the gun could be zeroed.

•The Rear Sling Swivel is either a Winchester or Ithaca style swivel - not a Remington swivel. The Remington 870 Mk.1 rear swivel is the same as found on the Remington 513T .22 target rifles, and the USMC M40 and M40A1 sniper rifles.

•The Bolt in the GB listed M870 Mk.1 is shiny/chrome - USMC Bolts were a dull, black oxide finish.

•Some USMC Mk.1's did had "U.S. Property" hand etched on the left side of the receiver - not roll engraved. U.S. Navy and some U.S. Air Force M870's had "U.S. Property" Roll engraved, but they were all equipped with 20" barrels and Bead Sight Adaptors.

•The parkerized finish is too fresh, and would have aged/mottled a bit even if not handled for 45 years. Remington parkerizing back in the 60's-70's had more of a "greenish/grey" tinge. Additionally, the Trigger Guard/Plate looks pretty shiny - should have a dull anodizing.

•Wood looks to have been refinished, especially the forend.

It's a decent looking 870, but, in my opinion, only worth the sum of the parts. If it were the real deal, I would be giving it serious consideration.

[scosgt]

And the Ithaca is "right" but it may have been refinished. The markings look too shallow and the wood is too commercial looking. Too bad, I would bid on that but I am just not sure it is original.

[SPEEDGUNNER]

I am not so sure about the 1200 either. The 1200's were in two distinct serial ranges, of which this one falls into the later range. The early guns commonly had the black anodized receiver with a parked barrel and handguard/adaptor, while the later guns in the serial range of the one being offered more typically had a light park on the receiver as well as the barrel and handguard/adaptor. Based on the suspicions raised by Bruce as to the sellers veracity, it causes me to pause to wonder if the 1200 hasn't been messed with as well.

[scosgt]

I am not so sure about the 1200 either. The 1200's were in two distinct serial ranges, of which this one falls into the later range. The early guns commonly had the black anodized receiver with a parked barrel and handguard/adaptor, while the later guns in the serial range of the one being offered more typically had a light park on the receiver as well as the barrel and handguard/adaptor. Based on the suspicions raised by Bruce as to the sellers veracity, it causes me to pause to wonder if the 1200 hasn't been messed with as well.

NOT the sellers veracity. There is a dealer, NOT the seller, who is notorious for faking guns. He could have been fooled and bought it from him.

[SPEEDGUNNER]

I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification...let's just say the guns may have originated from a "questionable source"

[usmc69]

There are numerous things wrong with this "USMC M870 Mk.1" - some have already been point out, but to add to it:

•While it's a 1970's manufactured receiver, the serial number is way above the known serial number range for USMC M870 Mk.1's.

•USMC M870 Mk.1 barrels were 21", not 20" as is on the one listed. All USMC 21" barrels were stamped "MOD" for a Modified choke. I suspect the barrel to be a 1970's era Remington 20" rifle sighted "slug/deer" barrel, that someone has removed the brazed on front sight ramp in order to install the Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor. Further proof is that the barrel has no choke stamped on it - 1970's era Remington 20" rifle sight barrels do not have a choke stamped on them.

•The Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor is the early Remington 1-Piece design. USMC 870 Mk.1's had a 2-Piece Adaptor, as the USMC wanted the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning. Only a few very early and prototype USMC 870 Mk.1's had the 1-Piece Adaptor with sight base brazed on (1-Piece Adaptors were normally equipped with a Bead Sight). Additionally, the 1-Piece Adaptors had a razed flange at the rear for the front end of a proposed Heat Shield to secure/slide under. On production guns, the Heat Shield idea was eliminated and the 2-Piece Adaptor adopted for ease of disassembly.

•Additionally, the top of the Front Sight Ramp has not been milled down and the dovetail recut for the front sight. This was done to compensate for the added height the thickness of the Bayonet Lug/Clamping Sleeve Adaptor created to ensure the gun could be zeroed.

•The Rear Sling Swivel is either a Winchester or Ithaca style swivel - not a Remington swivel. The Remington 870 Mk.1 rear swivel is the same as found on the Remington 513T .22 target rifles, and the USMC M40 and M40A1 sniper rifles.

•The Bolt in the GB listed M870 Mk.1 is shiny/chrome - USMC Bolts were a dull, black oxide finish.

•Some USMC Mk.1's did had "U.S. Property" hand etched on the left side of the receiver - not roll engraved. U.S. Navy and some U.S. Air Force M870's had "U.S. Property" Roll engraved, but they were all equipped with 20" barrels and Bead Sight Adaptors.

•The parkerized finish is too fresh, and would have aged/mottled a bit even if not handled for 45 years. Remington parkerizing back in the 60's-70's had more of a "greenish/grey" tinge. Additionally, the Trigger Guard/Plate looks pretty shiny - should have a dull anodizing.

•Wood looks to have been refinished, especially the forend.

It's a decent looking 870, but, in my opinion, only worth the sum of the parts. If it were the real deal, I would be giving it serious consideration.



I have to agree. I have a USMC MK 1 barrel, bayonet adapter, and extension tube mounted on a 870 Express, that I used in the Corp to teach a Combat Shotgun Course. The one in the auction is not right........