View Full Version : M66 stock repair
I have a very dry stock that has a badly splintered forend for my Springfield M66 that I'm trying to salvage. What type of glues are you using for repairs and what kind of treatment or oil should I use on the stock to try to revive it? Very dry black walnut. Thanks for any help from guys that have had good luck with saving badly damaged guns . JW :)
Without seeing I can only guess.
I use Gorilla Glue but if it is a hard shooter and heavily damaged a more extensive repair is needed. I have been trying Agraglas and had a stock snapped in half the other day. It is no better than and less of a good repair for wood unless you remove wood for it it get a better bond. As a thin glue is is worthless and the color even when dyed is horrible.
Gorilla Glue works well and colors well when stained. I used a stripper and or Acetone to leach into the cracks and remove oil if needed 1st. Rick B
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http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21465&d=1367165948
That whole piece next to the tang is split off also.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21464&d=1367165940
I might leave the burnt part in front of the lock? not sure?
I call this one Layering. You will need to make jigs or use deep well sockets for the channel plus shims to clamp it in place. Gorilla Glue will work fine but make sure it's clamped as it expands. You will then need to put pieces in for the missing if you would like it to be complete but you can let that go if you are wanting it to look more original and worn. Rick
musketshooter
06-24-2014, 09:01
Do not waste you time with Gorilla glue. It is not appropriate for stocks that have oil in and on them. It appears that the best restoration method would be to buy a new forearm from S&S and splice it on at the lower band.
Dick Hosmer
06-24-2014, 10:17
Sorry, but, without getting into the science/politics of Gorilla glue (there may be better glues, but Rick's results are magnificent). Where possible, I use walnut-colored epoxy bedding compound.
As to the new forend, I couldn't disagree more. IMHO, the ONLY time one should ever consider a chunk of completely new wood is when the original has been sawn completely off.
I am guessing he missed where I said Acetone is needed to clean out the crack. Rick B
I am guessing he missed where I said Acetone is needed to clean out the crack. Rick B
And the part where I said it's very dry, meaning has very little oil in it, if any! ;)
Did the forend first with epoxy. Gluing all the splinters together and then adding the new filler. The black walnut I used has allot more color than the old wood so I'll have to play with that. Both sides of the stock were split off on ether side of the tang. I used Gorilla glue there. It wont be a very good looking stock but it is original ! And thats a good thing. Now some color and finish.
StockDoc
06-28-2014, 12:55
You will devalue that rifle by trying to repair it. Just stop the deterioration of the stock. Oil it carefully. If you want to shoot it, if it is shootable, that is. Put a new stock on it. The Burned area should stay on the stock, that is part of its history.
. . . . It wont be a very good looking stock but it is original ! . . . .
How 'n 'ell can it be "original" AFTER the work you did to it!!
Dick Hosmer
06-28-2014, 02:08
-1.
No matter what, it has WAY more originality than ANY replacement.
New wood is the absolute last resort in my book, and, to go a step further, a new cartouche on new wood, besides engaging in serious self-delusion, should probably be prosecutable as a criminal act.
Stocks have been repaired since they were 1st made. Saving a piece of history if not for a museum is best. It is no different than oiling the stock just like they did all those years. Maintaining the stock is key to making it last.
I do it daily and have saved many masterpieces and rare stuff that few have ever been lucky enough to touch. Museums continue to this day to clean art work that is in bad shape in order to keep its value up and keep it for many to see for years to come. Rick B
StockDoc
06-28-2014, 06:05
The correct glue to use, if one wanted to maintain a period correct repair would have been a "hyde glue. The only thing Gorilla Glue is good for is patio furniture. Besides no museum would even attempt to repair a stock such as that. They would just try and stop the decay.
New wood would only be used for shooting the firearm, which would be foolish with the mentioned stock.
You are right, even repairing and trying to sell as an original, or close to original should be a criminal act. Original stocks should be left alone with their dents and cracks
Dick and original Poster, this guy follows me around trying to bash what ever I say just so you understand. He even took my Moniker of Stock Doc when he is new here. Should be enough for suspicion. Was named Stock Doc 20 years ago for all the super repairs I did to save thousands of stocks. I had a contract way back to repair many stocks found in that Barn I cleaned out and have all happy customers from saving their wood. Shame someone will come in and try to stop good honest help in order to knock a good guy down.
Happy to see you are saving the stock as you want to with your own property. . Rick B
StockDoc
06-28-2014, 06:49
Sorry Rick, you have me confused with some one else, why would I follow some one that gives marginal advice.
Oh well, keep thinking that way. By the way if you Google Stockdoc you will find about 20 others that use the name. Besides if it was your name why was it available when I signed up 4 weeks ago.
You apparently have a mental problem that you should have looked into. You even accused Paladin on the first post I answered of following you.
Sheesh, some people.
stock doc - it seems that you just want to be an irritant poster.
StockDoc
06-28-2014, 07:19
RCS seems the other way around to me, But if you want to think that it okay, free country.
How did you ever come up with that conclusion from this post?
"You will devalue that rifle by trying to repair it. Just stop the deterioration of the stock. Oil it carefully. If you want to shoot it, if it is shootable, that is. Put a new stock on it. The Burned area should stay on the stock, that is part of its history. "
Wow talk about trying to read between the lines
As I stated and it seems you have a problem reading - you are just a irritant poster attempting to force your ideas on the other posters. Let it alone ! things will work out without your advice
StockDoc
06-28-2014, 08:59
Not trying to force anything on anyone, like some posers. Just trying to share 40 yrs or wood working, and info that I learned from Americas foremost wood worker. you have a great evening RCS or is it Rick B
Here is the Odd Coincidence. Paledin601 was Banned from CMP for constantly putting doubt in everything I said. He was banned about 5 weeks ago and had an issues with my name of Stock Doc also. Sure seems suspicious all around. You are a furniture refinisher not a Gun Stock worker and are against working on stocks so why the name???
If you do a search of my name and Stock Doc it comes up more than anyone out there and best part is I had the name given to me on the forums long before the other had theirs from all we seen. Yes I did not invent the name. Yes anyone can use it if I didn't copyright it as Stock Brokers use the name also. But it is all to odd the coincidences of your behavior and name when not tied to Stock work in anyway. Just saying.
My methods have worked for many years and glues and products change. The Military has repaired stocks longer than I have thought of it and made changes in their Finishes, stains and glues so no one is perfect. Springfield Armory puts Bees Wax on all their stocks and they are a museum. No one put that on during military times. I find it to be an issue for sure and can go over the many including not able to be removed if needed or that it locks anything in and the stocks will crack overtime as they cannot breath. So your demand for it one way isn't panning out well for collectors and shooters. I have worked on some rare stuff and I mean eve a 1st made rifle that a collector blew apart by accident. Saving some of these is more important to many. Just saying. Rick B
Dick Hosmer
06-29-2014, 08:52
Dick and original Poster, this guy follows me around trying to bash what ever I say just so you understand. He even took my Moniker of Stock Doc when he is new here. Should be enough for suspicion. Was named Stock Doc 20 years ago for all the super repairs I did to save thousands of stocks. I had a contract way back to repair many stocks found in that Barn I cleaned out and have all happy customers from saving their wood. Shame someone will come in and try to stop good honest help in order to knock a good guy down.
Happy to see you are saving the stock as you want to with your own property. . Rick B
Rick, I don't need (or want) to "understand" the politics of who likes you and who doesn't, as far as I am concerned, your work speaks for itself.
Rick, I don't need (or want) to "understand" the politics of who likes you and who doesn't, as far as I am concerned, your work speaks for itself.
Thank you Sir and I have always taken the utmost care in preserving Gun Stocks while trying to keep the Been there Done that look. I have fought with owners when they wanted the stock to look new or sand marks I know were from teh factory removed. Each stock presents its own life, challenge and history to which I admire and live for. Rick B
StockDoc
06-29-2014, 09:43
Now you are just rambling Rick, trying to associate me with someone that you have a disagreement. Never said I don't work on stocks, I just don't change Historical stocks, I will oil them and put a Finn wax on them, that is it. I have contracted to several museums to clean their firearms and arrest the decay of the wood.
BTW, the Military never stained their everyday stocks, just ceremonial rifles. When oiled, black walnut has a nice color by itself. even later when a little sap wood became present in the Blanks, the Armories still did not stain their stocks.
Never been on the CMP site as a member, as a guest yes. Still don't know who you are, don't care who or what you do. All I know from your posts are that you are not open to suggestions. Have a nice life.
Well I got it patched up. The forend still looks really bad but I only wanted to patch the missing pieces and not remove more wood than what had already been lost. All in all I'm happy with what I got. The rifle was in really bad shape and being parted out when I bought it. Mostly missing lock parts. Both sides of the tang area were broke out. Left side of tang , just a 1/4"x2" chip. Left of tang chipped out to center of lock. Chip in front of lock. All those repairs were done with Gorilla glue. Forend repairs done with epoxy.
StockDoc
06-29-2014, 09:56
a real nice job, glad you left the "burnt" area on, adds to the stocks character.
You will devalue that rifle by trying to repair it. Just stop the deterioration of the stock. Oil it carefully. If you want to shoot it, if it is shootable, that is. Put a new stock on it. The Burned area should stay on the stock, that is part of its history.
Look at the forend! It is literally falling apart! If a repair isn't done there wont be anything to hold the barrel band on, This rifle was in such bad shape it had almost zero value! Just "parts" Unlike allot of these rifles, this one has never been shortened. Old stuff that is in reasonable shape and never been touched has great value. Ones that have been maintained are of lesser value. Usually a lot less. This one was junk! Now it's not.
a real nice job, glad you left the "burnt" area on, adds to the stocks character.
Thanks :)
I only wanted to do enough to make the wood complete. The metal was so badly rusted and pitted I wanted to clean it off. I removed all of the rust and coloring from the rust. I also left all the pits. Metal should start to look better in a couple years or so.
StockDoc
06-29-2014, 10:26
I have seen some that were found in the desert after 100 yrs and the stock is cracked and weathered and still have considerable value. Some collectors and decorators like that look. I know of one guy who sold a rifle to a decorator for a Restaurant that got more then he paid for the rifle. And it was worse then yours. One of the reasons I dislike repairing the old guns. But the gun is yours, do what you like.
Here is a tip of rust stains. Use "Hydrogen Peroxide wood bleach" apply with a Hobby Brush and the bleach does not have to be neutralized. But go very slow, it works fast.
Dick Hosmer
06-29-2014, 10:49
Just my .02:
Wood looks very nice, but, IMHO, you -or someone - overdid the metal (Naval Jelly? That is BAD stuff for antique firearms - gets things WAY too clean) by quite a bit. Too bad you didn't ask about that.
Yes, it will re-acquire a patina, but probably not in our lifetimes.
The reason I wanted a M66 was the story behind them. Starting it's life as a muzzle loader for the war and then as a cartridge Indian and bufflo git er! I don't have allot of money and paid less than $160 for it. Most of the guns in my small collection have stories behind them, a part of history to tell .
Just my .02:
IMHO, you -or someone - overdid the metal (Naval Jelly? That is BAD stuff for antique firearms - gets things WAY too clean) by quite a bit.
I would agree on a rifle that has some value in being original! This gun had been worked over a long long time ago though. Then it was forgotten about somewhere and lost all value due to damage and robed parts. If this rifle had been originally blued or browned (say a Sharps or even newer trapdoor)I would have treated the metal differently. But theses were bright finished for the most part. When I hand this to someone to look at (lay person, not a collector) they will have an idea what it looked like then. With the patina on it, it looked nothing like it did originally. If I had just removed the rust all the metal would have been dark. No bright except on the bottom of the barrel where you cant see it .
The miltary positively used stain. On the trapdoors and 1903 they used Logwood stain and it is documented. Working on many original stocks retaining the stain I have seen it. Unmolested Post War Garands show heavy stain. The few thousand I bought from the barn unmolested since 1947 have stain.
StockDoc
06-29-2014, 09:00
321, well then since you have removed all the Rust Patina, why not redo it? You can get kits to do a brown finish or a blued finish on it. Oxpho Blue puts a nice blued finish that is wipe on. Never have had much luck with the Brown finish, getting a consistent finish. Some people have had luck with Muriatic acid to get the Brown Rust finish. 321, you might consider carving the front stock from some old Black Walnut, I would look in a building supply surplus store for some old table legs. First make them out of a soft wood before you cut into the walnut.
It would be kind of hard for Springfield Armory to stain stocks since wood stain was invented by George Washington Carver and he was born about 1864. Both Duff and Canfield say that the Armories DID NOT stain Garand stocks. I have some NOS Thompson stocks 1964 that are not stain, but oiled in China Oil (Tung Oil)
Dick Hosmer
06-29-2014, 10:16
I would agree on a rifle that has some value in being original! This gun had been worked over a long long time ago though. Then it was forgotten about somewhere and lost all value due to damage and robed parts. If this rifle had been originally blued or browned (say a Sharps or even newer trapdoor)I would have treated the metal differently. But theses were bright finished for the most part. When I hand this to someone to look at (lay person, not a collector) they will have an idea what it looked like then. With the patina on it, it looked nothing like it did originally. If I had just removed the rust all the metal would have been dark. No bright except on the bottom of the barrel where you cant see it .
There is nothing wrong - to me - in honest age (which can mean a steely gray with dark tones, liver spots, etc.) on a once-bright gun. But, in my view, Naval Jelly, which can make a gun look like a silver sponge, leaves a very phony-looking finish, which does not resemble the original. When the guns were bright, they were also smooth - when they are no longer smooth, they do not look good - to me - bright.
So, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but we'll do it without any name-calling. [GRIN]
There is nothing wrong - to me - in honest age (which can mean a steely gray with dark tones, liver spots, etc.) on a once-bright gun. But, in my view, Naval Jelly, which can make a gun look like a silver sponge, leaves a very phony-looking finish, which does not resemble the original. When the guns were bright, they were also smooth - when they are no longer smooth, they do not look good - to me - bright.
So, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but we'll do it without any name-calling. [GRIN]
What you and I see on an antique are the same . There are 2 differences that I see that you may not. #1 is what other people see when looking at an antique. Most don't have an appreciation for that aged patina. To them it just looks old and bad. Right or wrong that's what they see.#2 I see unrestored untouched antiques as a very rare thing. That makes them the highest of value. A 100 say. But any work done on one will drastically reduce it value as much as 60% or more. And then you have ones that have been passed around in a family, shot up, used up. Been refinished several times over its life. May be worth 10 or 20% of what an untouched one would be. Then there are ones like I got that was lost and found, stored in the wood shed with a leaky roof, the barn or outhouse. They are usually destroyed or parted out. I guess our differences are in the look. I thought it was important for the metal to be silver and not blued or browned like so many guns at the time. Removing patina on a rifle like this doesn't make it loose any value. It lost all of that years ago when it was first refinished and more when it was done again. And the final straw was poor storage. This rifle will never be an untouched one or one that was lightly touched up. This gun passed those marks probably 100 years ago. I had the loose rust off the parts and it still looked really bad. What I found amazing was the barrel was in fantastic shape under the wood. Not rusted at all. I'm glad I got it and it hasn't been cut down or rearranged by Bannerman or someone. And it falsely wasn't restored to "untouched " condition( I knew someone that did that when I was a kid. He did mostly Parkers) :)
Dear Lord. You are clearly Paladin601 with the same arguements and examples. They have been stain things longer than you think and Indians made stains from many things including Black Walnut Husks Rick B
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artapr08/yl-logwood.html
StockDoc
06-30-2014, 07:51
You can't change history, no matter how hard you try.
Seems like you are holding on to this Paladin guy, and transferring your hatred for him to me. he must o got the best of you, perhaps a Psychologist can help you with your Transference difficulty. Meanwhile I hope everyone prays for you and your difficulty.
Dick Hosmer
06-30-2014, 08:00
Hey, I'm glad you got it, too, and I appreciate your attitude, and the work you put into it - and, despite the pictures, I'm not "there", holding it, so can only go with my feelings and opinions.
That said, I still don't agree (nor do I need to for both of us to be happy) with your choice of metal treatment.
Keep up with the personal insults but Staining has bee done for centuries. Duff and Canfield have been wrong many times just like the Educational Article in the GCA this month which includes myself and RCS in the article.
I apologize to the original poster for this off track stuff. I just didn't want this guy to lie to you folks. Rick B
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Wood-Stain.html
StockDoc
06-30-2014, 08:57
Turnbull's does the same thing you are doing, and is have great luck. You might want to check them out, maybe you can get some tips on how to proceed.
StockDoc
06-30-2014, 08:59
not going to respond to you anymore, son. You apparently have to heavy baggage to lug around. Wish you the best of luck dealing with those demons
Hey, I'm glad you got it, too, and I appreciate your attitude, and the work you put into it - and, despite the pictures, I'm not "there", holding it, so can only go with my feelings and opinions.
That said, I still don't agree (nor do I need to for both of us to be happy) with your choice of metal treatment.
:eusa_dance::)
Dick Hosmer
06-30-2014, 09:58
Turnbull's does the same thing you are doing, and is have great luck. You might want to check them out, maybe you can get some tips on how to proceed.
Oooops, brought up another of my pet peeves - whizzing up an old gun to look brand-spanking NEW. No matter how exquisite the craftsmanship, and he does gorgeous work, I simply don't care for the practice/concept, but, not my gun, not my money, so, not my choice to make.
StockDoc
06-30-2014, 11:06
Oooops, brought up another of my pet peeves - whizzing up an old gun to look brand-spanking NEW. No matter how exquisite the craftsmanship, and he does gorgeous work, I simply don't care for the practice/concept, but, not my gun, not my money, so, not my choice to make.
I agree, I much prefer to keep an old gun original. But their work is pleasing to the eye. However I do see problems for the future buyer. Was just at the Smithsonian and the NRA museum and still drool at the thought of those original firearms.
older than dirt
06-30-2014, 07:46
Everyone who has an old original rifle isn`t interested in keeping it to make $$ on it some day. They want it to look new or make to there liking & shoot it because it`s there rifle & they can.
StockDoc
06-30-2014, 08:11
Everyone who has an old original rifle isn`t interested in keeping it to make $$ on it some day. They want it to look new or make to there liking & shoot it because it`s there rifle & they can.
Do you think that one would be safe to shot? Me, I have no idea if it is or not. But, if I wanted a Trapdoor to shoot, I would by a rifle in better shape. I do understand his position though, of bringing it back into shape.
Dick Hosmer
06-30-2014, 08:17
Everyone who has an old original rifle isn`t interested in keeping it to make $$ on it some day. They want it to look new or make to there liking & shoot it because it`s there rifle & they can.
Making money has nothing whatsoever to with it, though for every idiot that whizzes his gun, mine goes up a few cents. Of course it is theirs, and they can do whatever they want to it, but, but I like to think that collecting and conserving has evolved, and we either don't do the stupid things we used to do in '50s, or we don't do them as much.
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