View Full Version : Confuddling T99
Bought a bringback T99 recently - late straight quillon bayont included (with some fantastic battle dinging on the scabbard edges). The rifle itself is a bit confusing.
It's a Nagoya. The serial is 78637. The series mark is unlike any marking I can find - it is NOT even the Ro marking found on some. It is simply like a half-struck O with a line coming out from the right side of the semi-circle,making it look like a 3, or a very poorly sruck 9 (with the left loop absent). I cannot find what this means, so if anyone can help it will be appreciated. I will photograph it tomorrow.
Sadly, a BAD mum-remove - COMPLETELY, and has 3 distinct filed edges.
Salient features are:
NON anti-aircraft sight
Nosecap with the 2 long bolts, as it uses a short screw in rod
Typicall rough stamped finish on the nosecap and triggerguard
Welded (REALLY rough) safety
NEVER had a dust cover fitted that I can see - I fitted a spare original dustcover I had, and it REALLY didn't want to move, let alone close properly! Could be old dried grease and crud, but I feel it never had one in the field.
Stock is nice, with no rough chatter, and it's original urushi finish. Wood seems mostly maple (or whatever the nice Japanese wood is), with the bottom butt splice in beech - NO separation at all.
Mid band non-monopod, not even the bottom bracket for it - just a plain welded band. Full swivels butt and mid band.
Bore is immaculate, nice chrome.
One issue is the original rod has broken off in the stock, leaving the threaded section screwed into the round ferrule. I cannot conceive how to remove it to fit my spare original short rod, and am open to suggestions - a friend suggested hitting it with a thin welding rod and unscrewing, but I am concerned about burning the stock of course! I could buy a repro short rod and cut it and glue it in there with some wood glue just for show, or just leave the whole thing as a testament to a bringback - opinions??? There is NO way that cylindrical ferrule is coming out with the threaded section still in it.
A lovely piece of Australian WW2 heritage. Shame on the Mum and the broken rod, but that I guess is part of it's history.
psteinmayer
05-10-2014, 06:56
Based on your description of the features, I would guess it is a Series 9 or later. Have you removed the action from the stock and seen if you can access the cleaning rod from the receiver end? Also, if it's a true "Bring-Back", it's possible it could be a duffle-cut stock. Remove the rear band and see if the stock is cut beneath the band. If so, you can separate the stock there and just remove the rod. My series 31 Toyo Kogyo was a duffle-cut that I repaired!
Otherwise, congrats on what sounds like a nice find!
Sounds like Toyo Kogyo arsenal with a light struck arsenal mark to me. Are you sure it is Nagoya, not Kokura? Pic would be incredibly helpful. I am not aware of any series mark that would look like what you described if poorly struck but then again I have seen some really terrible series marks and double strikes.
https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10353585_10152085245416200_6822314775465232460_n.j pg
It sounds like a series 6 to me. You don't say if the bolt was matching. However if it was they safety is incorrect. Some photos would help and a series 6 wouldn't have had a bolt cover.
No, it is Nagoya - the arsenal mark is well separated to the right from the serial. The "Series" mark, left of the serial number is the confounding marking.
I have separated the rifle into parts - not duffle cut. Remember, this is the SHORT rod - 5" long overall - that screws into a cylindrical ferrule in the same spot that the earlier series had the pressure plunger that retained the rod.The stock is not even deep drilled for the long rod - there is simply no way a long rod was ever even meant for the stock. The internal lightening slots ARE there, but that is it (and they are rough milled). The traditional 2 small screws that held the old style pressure plunger and the rear tang of the nosecap assembly are replaced with the cylindrical ferrule which has a ONE piece screw going through the rear of the nosecap tang - threaded one side only. So, I am thinking it's a bit later than a series 9.
Here it is.
Poorly struck 9, with no series? Ro marked? Poor strike 6th series?
psteinmayer
05-11-2014, 06:29
No mistaking it... that's a Nagoya! In my opinion, it's a poorly marked Series 10. Definitely NOT a 9, and by description of the rifle... far too late to be a 6, unless it's assembled from a bunch of parts. Do the numbers on the bolt, receiver, safety, etc. all match? If so, then it's not a 6.
Can we get a few pics of the complete rifle. including rear sling point?
9th series was produced at Izawa Jyuko so that is not even a possibility.
Lets go from one end to the other. If you can answer the questions you haven't already provided info for then we can probably nail it down for certain.
Front sight- guards or no?
Front band-2screw SERIES 5, NOT SERIES 7
short cleaning rod with round "button"- SERIES 5
Handguard-full length upper handguard or short handguard?
middle band- non monopod and welded SERIES 5
Rear sight-has mounts for AA sight or is ladder with no provision for wings?
Bolt-matching numbers including safety knob? handle is plumb shaped or cylindrical?
Small recoil lug-NOT SERIES 7
Receiver marked with Type99- NOT SERIES 7
Buttstock has 2 screw or one screw sling point?
It seems only logical that it must be a 6th series with a mismatched bolt. The safety knob should be grooved (very hard to find) and a lightly struck or angled strike as yours appears to be could look that way on a 6th series mark. 5th series wouldn't look like that and 7th-8th series are just too late and crude compared to your rifle.
In my opinion, it's a poorly marked Series 10. Definitely NOT a 9, and by description of the rifle... far too late to be a 6.
By 10th series you are well past a ladder sight and non duffel cut forestock. Late series 7 had welded front bands, no cleaning rod, wood buttplates....... basically everything after late series 7 is what most people consider last ditch.
Series 6 was still early enough to have a ladder style rear sight.
psteinmayer
05-11-2014, 06:42
My Nagoya Series 7 has the grooved safety, machined cylindrical bolt knob, short ladder (no wing) rear sight, front sight guards (short), metal butt plate, and is marked Type 99. The Mum is ground. There is no mistaking the series mark on it! Unfortunately, the stock was sported so the bands and sling swivels are missing. I believe that Series 7 is NOT last ditch. Didn't Nagoya produce Type 99 rifles up to series 12?
In case you're wondering about some of the things we are talking about, Jan 42, check this link which is for a Type 99 data sheet:
http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/DataSheets/M99/M99Data.htm#Model_99
Front sight- guards or no? : FULL GUARD, HEAVY STAKE TO BOTH SIDES OF SIGHT DOVETAIL
Front band-2screw SERIES 5, NOT SERIES 7 : 2 LARGE SCREWS ONLY
short cleaning rod with round "button"- SERIES 5: FULL CYLINDRICAL FERRULE,NO WORKING PARTS, JUST A NUT FOR THE 5" SHORT ROD
Handguard-full length upper handguard or short handguard? : LONG, FULL LENGTH
middle band- non monopod and welded SERIES 5 : CORRECT, WELDED, NO MONOPOD NOR REMNANTS OF SAME
Rear sight-has mounts for AA sight or is ladder with no provision for wings? : LADDER SIGHT WITH NO PROVISION FOR aa WINGS - NOT EVEN EMPTY SLOTS
Bolt-matching numbers including safety knob? handle is plumb shaped or cylindrical? : PLUM SHAPE HANDLE, FIRING PIN AND HANDLE MATCH, SAFETY DOES NOT
Small recoil lug-NOT SERIES 7: CORRECT
Receiver marked with Type99- NOT SERIES 7: CORRECT
Buttstock has 2 screw or one screw sling point? : 2 SCREW
A few more, including bayonet.
psteinmayer
05-12-2014, 09:40
I have to agree... Series 6.
I believe that Series 7 is NOT last ditch. Didn't Nagoya produce Type 99 rifles up to series 12?
You are mostly half right. Series 7 saw some serious changes during the run. Early to middle Series 7 are considered transitional rifles while late series 7 have many last ditch features.
They did produce several more series. They did not produce series 9 but off the top of my head I think they did make 10, 11 and 12.
Series 8, 10-12 are really rough including the rifles with a hole drilled through the butt for a rope sling.
Also, there is "last ditch" by Honeycutts book which is the Naval Cast iron receiver model, and collector "last ditch" which is any of the rifles missing all of the early features.
psteinmayer
05-12-2014, 12:35
That would explain why my Series 7 is not a 'Last Ditch"... I didn't know that the later were. I've seen an 8, and rough? oh yeah, LOL.
Late 7 was almost identical to 8. This is also why I do not collect based on series. There are hundreds of variations most of which aren't very interesting. I have most of the variations covered with just a few rifles. Still looking for the rope sling rifle for a fair price. I've only seen one and I wasn't excited about the price.
Thanks for the assist guys.
Approx what year of production? '44?
psteinmayer
05-13-2014, 05:53
Well, I'm glad my Toyo Kogyo Series 31 is in such good shape... It makes up for my Nagoya 7 being sporterized! LOL
Thanks for the assist guys.
Approx what year of production? '44?
I would guess early 44 but I don't have any reference for that.
Griff Murphey
05-22-2014, 12:35
How far into the stock is the break in the rod? Got a dentist you know well?
If no deeper than 3/8" your dentist can cut a slot in the stub with a high speed crosscut fissure bur. Then, you just unscrew it. He may have to use a surgical bur, be prepared to reimburse for costs.
If no deeper than 3/8" your dentist can cut a slot in the stub with a high speed crosscut fissure bur.
That is a great idea. Will keep it in mind for future cases.
Dick Hosmer
06-04-2014, 02:08
I am NOT familiar with the details of what and where, but is there any possibility of just drilling into the remnant and using an EZ-out? If the hole is deep you might have to reduce the diameter of the rear portion of the EZ-out. Also, you say there is no duffel cut - would making a "proper" duffel cut give you access to where you need to be? If a great many stocks were cut, that shouldn't a terrible sin, and it's under the band anyhow.
Don't duffle cut your stock you don't have a long rod. It is screwed into that round piece of metal that is held in place back screw.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.