View Full Version : Finland, why are these variants more desirable? or are they
did sako build them any time, why are they more sought after? or are they better?
I have seen some pretty fair shooting done with simple Russian nagants, and i have a sniper vestion (1939) and it is a tack driver at 600 yards (do not like the scope due to it not being a micrometer type adj but a linear adj), hard to tell where you are and where you need to be on first round out of tube. But 6 X's in a row at 600 yards ain't bad for a 70+ year old rifle!
I have been considering starting a search for a good finnish version, any advice from the knowledgeable ones out there is appreciated
Yes Sako did build Mosins as well as other companies. The Fins just plain made better rifles then the Russians. They didn't make anywhere near as many and a lot of their rifles were Russian captured ones that they updated with new barrels and stocks or what ever was needed.
It depends on what the definition of "build" is. I don't know that the Finns ever actually made a Mosin receiver from scratch, though I could be wrong and know I'll be corrected if I am. Most, but not all Finnish Mosins (and every single one I've seen) are rebuilds on Russian/Soviet actions. They are more desirable than non Finnish pre WWII rifles for two reasons: They are generally more consistently accurate and there are a lot fewer of them. Sort of like Albanian SKS 45s, at least as far as rarity goes.
PhillipM
11-30-2013, 01:49
Why are the Finns so collectable?
This answer could be an entire article, so I will be as brief as I can. One factor is the low production numbers. The Finnish made Mosin Nagants were not produced on the scale of many battle rifles in WW2. One can compare 21 million Soviet M91-30's to only 130,000 (or so) Finnish M39 rifles to get a pretty clear picture of the number difference. All the Finnish Mosin Nagants are uncommon and some are downright rare. Also Finland has a great and interesting history behind it. A small nation of tough Finns stood up to the largest army in the world and gave much better than it took. The history is compelling and certainly is a factor in collecting. Another key factor is the simple fact that the Finnish made Mosin Nagants are well made and accurate rifles. They can hold their own in accuracy against any military arm made in their time frame. The old notion that cheap prices are why Finns are collectable is false, as the Finnish market is no longer a cheap one. This further goes to prove just how good the rifles themselves are. They have an appeal that is much greater than cheap prices.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnfaq.asp
keith smart
11-30-2013, 05:09
Finland, why are these variants more desirable
As above, November 1939-March 1940, The Winter War
There are two times I know of when a mixmaster rebuild can compete with a pristine all original in value:
Anything that has U.S.M.C. provenance.
A Finnish Mosin-Nagant.
Shooter5
11-30-2013, 08:40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant#Finland
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM39.htm
http://www.gunsnammo.com
Highly Recommend the M39; if you like the MN you may much more prefer the M39.
http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/pu-original-wwii.html
Many variations of Finnish Mosins and they do seem to be more accurate, the barrels are shimmed to the stocks on many of them. Here's a few pictures of my Finnish M91.
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/026-4.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/madisonvalleywapiti/media/026-4.jpg.html)
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/020-8.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/madisonvalleywapiti/media/020-8.jpg.html)
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/madisonvalleywapiti/021-8.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/madisonvalleywapiti/media/021-8.jpg.html)
ismith, that is one sweet looking rifle :icon_salut:. A mostly original Remington M91 modified by the Finns. If it could just talk.
well, I just bought one, probably paid too much for it, but we shall see. Would not be the first time i overpaid for something.
I bought a Sako version of the nagant
Now here is another question.
Why did the Soviets build a carbine version of the Nagant, I have one and it is not bad rifle, pretty accurate 1 1/4" at 100 yards from prone, that aint bad. but like other carbine attempts it sure is loud and has a helluva whack on the shoulder. but for $67.00 us dollars at a gun show, why not? still say it would make a nice deer rifle for someone on a budget, but the safety issue for these things, no aftermarket safety and the original Russian "pull the striker and rotate it"
is absurd. in reality the safety probably was to keep the finger off the trigger
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/377556000/377556060/pix977675505.jpg
Shooter5
12-03-2013, 01:53
Globally, most military troops have an empty chamber in a weapon unless and until they are actually under live fire conditions. That is likely why the safety on the MN is what it is: it probably wasn't used much if any. You will like the M39. The carbine version of the MN was for support troops, artillery, etc. They likely never used them much in combat but still needed a weapon if called upon. The majority of Soviet infantry doctrine revolved around the automatic weapons, organic artillery such as mortars, and for close-in; the PPSh. These weapons and tactics with a combined arms approach - maneuver warfare with armor, heavy artillery and rockets, plus air power when available - is what wins battles. The bolt action rifle sounds cool but its effects on the battlefield historically speaking, were minor.
See the German experience: they also had the squad and platoon firepower mainly depend on the machine gun. Their bolt action 98k was not the decisive arm of battle. Once they encountered the massive firepower of the PPSh during close in engagements, the Germans being smart did not reinvent the wheel (if it works, use it!). They used the PPSh concept themselves. They also developed the assault rifle concept; hence, the StG series.
''most military troops have an empty chamber in a weapon unless and until they are actually under live fire''
**
i am just not so sure about what you say! I never saw that and have the worn out boots to show it
I never went anywhere with an empty chamber, carried the 45 locked and cocked with safety on, the m14 locked and loaded with safety on, same with M16 and shotgun
the most horrible sound i ever heard was late at night on a moonless night at dodge city and I heard the safety click from a NVA ambush team
my fireteam, my squad, my platoon always was locked and loaded
The Russians/Soviets built carbine versions for two reasons. The first was horse cavalry which actually continued in service through WWII!! The second was to shorten the rifle and make it more practical not just for rear echelon troops but the regular infantry. M44 carbines were widely issued to front line units in the last year of the war. Finally, postwar carbines, many converted from long rifles (the Model 30/59) were used for police work both in the Soviet Union and the satellite countries.
On the round in the chamber issue. When I carried an M14 on a regular basis in Korea SOP was a full magazine and an empty chamber. This SOP was universally ignored. All pistols were carried with an empty chamber. When I worked the Atlanta Olympics the Georgia National Guard MPs ran into a problem with the civilian authorities when it was discovered that not only were the Guard's pistols carried without a round in the chamber they were carried without a magazine in the weapon. This led to quite a dust up I must say. Finally a compromise was reached in which the Nat. Guard guys carried an M9 pistol with an empty chamber but a magazine in the weapon. One night before the Olympics actually began a Nat. Guard soldier was hit by a stray round from "the hood." He was not seriously injured but I understand you could hear slides being racked all over the place. With an Mosin operating the bolt is undoubtedly quicker than operating the safety!!!
Shooter5
12-03-2013, 06:45
''most military troops have an empty chamber in a weapon unless and until they are actually under live fire''
**
i am just not so sure about what you say!
… meant to say:
Most armies globally usually do not have chambered rounds unless in or around direct combat. The US is a little different that way; in the 20th century, we have tended to lock and load for most combat troops - support units are a different matter.
An example of non-chambered weapons is the militaries that use the AK47; its safety tends to be cumbersome to quickly use when coming under fire or when needed to get quickly into action so it tends to be more efficient to just simply rack a round from the mag when ready to fire. There are many variations of this depending on era, circumstances, type of troops, location during conflict etc.
Recall that many soldiers around the world tend to be less trained or proficient in safe and competent handling. It doesn't take too many negligent discharges for commanders to simply order weapons to be carried without chambered rounds.
Currently, even in combat zones, oddly enough, some US forces operate under strange restrictions for rounds chambered/magazines in or out - at least from the perspective of a grunt. Consider sidearms, since the US military of all branches has often fielded poorly trained soldiers when it comes to the pistol both in terms of marksmanship and proficient handling skills, units that have the M9 pistol have a wide array of carry rules. Some of common styles are: mag out completely unloaded (sad but true), loaded mag in with empty chamber and on safe, or loaded mag with chambered round on safe. Some unique units can operate an M9 with a loaded mag and chambered round without the safety on as long as the hammer is down. However, those units also tend to use a pistol model other than the M9.
like i said
I think i turned grey haired that night, when i heard that safety go off, i knew i was dead
then in less than 10 seconds all hell broke loose, and i shot a whole clip at the direction of the noise and threw just about every frag i had
then i cleaned my shorts
… ..........Some unique units can operate an M9 with a loaded mag and chambered round without the safety on as long as the hammer is down......
Our son belongs to one of the units that carries the M9 pistol in this mode. You are correct that that is very unusual in U.S. service.
i never carried the new 9MM i have one and have fired one, and I do sort of like it, but i think it is underpowered, but that is my own pers opinion. i do like the idea of double action capability and first round down range is the one probably that counts, but i still carry my Colt, and i still carry it like i always did, locked and cocked with safety on, Galco shoulder holster easy pull and it is ready to go.
Nest year i will be shooting in the Marine Corps Division Matches at LeJeune and will shoot the 9mm and will shoot the M16 with the optical sights, (that ought to be a experience) two full weeks of shooting cant wait
madsenshooter
12-05-2013, 04:10
I wonder if the Finns used any of their accuracy tricks on the Japanese rifles and carbines they used.
"Finland, why are these variants more desirable? or are they"
Keep in mind,like the Swede Mausers,they weren't that expensive when they first came onto the market.They just didn't come into the country in as big a quantity as the Russian and East Bloc ones.Once collectors picked up on this fact and shooters discovered that they shot rather well the prices started climbing.At the start you could buy near mint Swede M38s and Finn M39s for around $135.I've got one each I paid that kind of price for,now not so minty ones are running 2 to 3 times that.
you are correct, and i did pay more than 135.00 for a sako. but wth
interesting side bar on this topic is that the TV Show "life below zero" has a a part of it a following story about a Alaskan family where the wife of the alaskan, a Unuit Eskimo is the hunter of the clan (so to speak) she even has the tribal tatoos on her face. Little bitty thing in reality, but most of the time she is in BELOW ZERO clothing, but the woman can shoot and her two rifles of choice are both Russian, one is a M39 sniper version with a scope and the other is a Finnish Mosin Nagant. I watched her drop a carribou at over 200 yards trotting and she did it offhand, and i watched her sight in the scoped rifle at over 200 yards at a target drawn in the snow and she hit dead center on 2nd shot where first shot was 12" high
there are some other shows that are of the same venue one is "Yukon Men" where the rifle of choice seems to be the AR platform and i watched a man drop a running wolf at 200 yards with one shot on the AR with iron sights, impressive
When you say M39 sniper version are you referring to the Soviet M91/30 sniper rifle?
I've watched several of those shows about subsistence hunters in Alaska,many of them do use military bolt rifles in one form or another with good success.Simple,built rugged,accurate enough to get the job done for the game they shoot.Cheap compared to commercial rifles and built to withstand a lot of abuse,which I imagine they get and easy to disassemble and repair with a minimum of tools.
When you say M39 sniper version are you referring to the Soviet M91/30 sniper rifle?
yes i was, sorry about that i have one also, and it is pretty accurate but i really do not like the vernier dial, no clicks, and at 600 yards hard to remember what is on it, doubt if it was used for that many long shots and in reality you only get one
They are more desirable because they are less common, they have more variations and they are generally of much higher quality.
Oddly enough, I have been trying to get some cheap Russian rifles for friends but keep running into nice Finns for between $100 and $175. I am not complaining, but I do find it odd. Heck, I bought 3 Nagants for $300 a while back and was excited that one was a Finn. But then I realised that a second one was a Finn. A lfew minutes later on when I had time to look more closely I realised the 3rd was a strict 91/30 Finn.
Probability of finding 5 Finns for under $600 in 6 months? Pretty low. I sell them at $300-$350 a piece and they move fairly quickly.
Dick Hosmer
12-10-2013, 08:56
Just as an aside here, I do not know of ANYONE who has come even close in the documentation of ANY weapon, as Ted Derryberry (Mr. 7.62x54R) has with the Moisin-Nagant.
If you are interested in that rifle, his is the only website you will ever need.
Thanks Dick, I need some info on some slings, maybe he can help. I found a site with about 3-4 pages of slings and nothing close to what I have. I think they are very late East German slings.
talk about timing!
that is the very subject i wish to bring up, what was the sling like on the finnish models, have some familiarity of the russian canvas with the little leather "attachment device" but what were the slings like for the fins?
my sako arrived today and it is quite a husky weapon, looks like it would have been a beast in hand to hand combat with its size, have no idea what the bayonet would be like
anyone know where a sling can be had? for my use a repro would be fine. the sako i have actually has two sling attachments, one on side and the other traditional on bottom Why two?
quite impressed with the shape of the bore, bright shiney, crisp looking forward to shooting it
quite pleased with it
where the mosin sniper rifle i have has a slender appearance with the forearm being quite slender the sako is husky and tough looking, and is shorter than the russian nagant
http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/finn_m39_sling.htm
http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/Finn_Slings.htm
Here's about as large a selection of Finn accessory items in one spot as I've seen-
https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=41
The bayonets are kind of rare birds.They'll bring as much if not more than the rifles.
http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/1359/9514577/m39bayo330d.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg
i am about as new to these as one can be, had no idea that there were that many models of the variants.
i have a model 39 and sometime in its life it had the stock repaired, the forearm piece was glued to the stock with very professional finger groove cuts. was this common to the armorers at that time, correct me if i am wrong but didnt the USA simply replace the whole thing if it was broken? or is this a trademark and not only a trademark but showed some cabinet making skills.
Too bad the whole stock is not like the glued on piece it is almost a birdseye maple pattern and looks nice, but i like the repair, and i see nothing wrong with fixing something that can be fixed. Was it a sign of the economy, supply status, times?
I like the way this thing feels, like a damn club, and probably more than one of them have been used in that way
any particular comments about ammo, i know that there is a ton of corrosive 7.62X54 out there, and i have a couple of cases of it, but if it shoots like it feels and looks, i just might want to use it in the CMP vintage match, I regularly shoot a vintage Swede Mauser and do well with that (High senior X 6 times) and usually shoot in the high 280's out of 300 on standard 200 yard target and since it is shot at 200 yards "10 rounds slow prone" "ten rounds 5 and 5 rapid fire with mag/clip change" and "10 rounds offhand"
I just have a feel that this thing will shoot well, and i have no other reason to say that other than the way it feels and the bore shape
That's not a repair.Finn stocks are made that way.You can date the stock by what type of spice it is.Your birdseye maple is probably arctic birch.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnish_mosin_nagantm39.asp
If you can find a copy of Doug Bowser's book Rifles of the White Death it's an in depth study and history of the Finn rifles.
WELL, HERE IS THE START!
The more i investigate these things and all the variations the more intriguing it all gets. guess a trip to my local library is in order (the woman shudders when i give her the next title, but she always comes thru, they had to go to a different state one time to get a book, but the UNC Library system and its share program is a tax dollar i support)
but here are my three entries into the Collection world, do three make a collection?
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/RUSSIAANDFINNISH1024x473_zps7ada9cf7.jpg
i paid 87.00 us dollars for the bottom one about 9 years ago, pretty accurate at 100 yards, very loud, and a helluva whack on the old shoulder
"…..do three make a collection?"
LOL I have some "collections" with one item.
PhillipM
12-13-2013, 07:23
I'm not into foreign milsurps but I do know Doug Bowser. PM sent with his phone number, he loves to talk about Mosins.
i hate it when i stumble into something that makes me look deeper and deeper into the subj
saw this page and the man said that this was NOT a comprehensive list of variants? hell they even made a 410 shotgun in the balkans out of this action!
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRef01.htm
Now i find out that the rifles were shimmed for accurace and i look at the most recent one and think and wonder and say WTH
now to clear the work bench and take it apart and look see
and to think i thought Mauser collecting would be bad to start
Shooter5
12-15-2013, 10:12
Looks like a great start. I would like a scoped M39! Have seen a few. The sniper MNs are much easier to acquire.
http://www.empirearms.com/rifles.htm
http://www.allans-armory.com/aa.php
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/index.html
http://www.simpsonltd.com
http://www.collectorfirearms.org
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com
Oh, speaking of white death, and to perk you interest more, the most successful sniper EVER was a Finn. Although, his kills and the term "sniper" are kind of questionable when combined as he was fond of hunting Russians with iron sights and is rumored to have used a submachinegun as well. However, 505 of his kills were confirmed and accumulated in 100 days.
A classic case of an attacker underestimating his opponent and home field advantage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Ken in Iowa
12-20-2013, 06:27
Very nice Mosin collection. I have the M38 and M39, but sold the PU snipers. The scope is too high for my taste. The open bridge limits how the scope can be mounted.
The M39 is one of the most accurate bolt action military rifles of WW2. Create some handloads using Sierra 174 gr MatchKings or .311 Sierra 180s and you will see why.
Look for a 40's vintage Tikka or VKT M91 next. Keep your eye open for earlier ones as well.
Here's something to add to your Finn rifle,the maintenance tools-
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p529/OldGussie/IMG_3861.jpg
Shooter5
12-27-2013, 08:02
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnish_mosin_nagantm39.asp
Brief rundown of the series.
I only happen to have three mosin nagant rifles, one a russian sniper, the other a carbine and the 3rd is the model 39 from Sako
some questions:
can you date a mosin orignal action by serial number?
did the Finns purposely put the serial number on the barrel? (my 39 has perfect stamp, and deep stamping of serial number on barrel right above is the Sako 'S' and underneath is 1942 where the russian serial number looks almost crudelyt stamped on the receiver) Can not even compare the serial number stamping the receiver is crude, misaligned, and the serial number on receiver is deeply stamped and perfect, same number
In 1923 Finland ordered some barrels for their M1891 rifles from SIG Neuhasen, later they order a heavy barrel also from SIG Neuhasen. These were known as the Model 1924 rifles.
do not know how rare these are but a different variation. These rifles also have had work done to improve the trigger pull.
Later Finland order both heavy and standard barrels from Germany
Photos show the heavy barrel Model 1924
In 1923 Finland ordered some barrels for their M1891 rifles from SIG Neuhasen, later they order a heavy barrel also from SIG Neuhasen. These were known as the Model 1924 rifles.
do not know how rare these are but a different variation. These rifles also have had work done to improve the trigger pull.
Later Finland order both heavy and standard barrels from Germany
Photos show the heavy barrel Model 1924
thanks for input and great photos, they are kinda neat rifles and lot of history with them, but back to question, is the date on the barrel the date the finns redid the rifle, i have no idea when the original action was built, 227865 is the original serial number on the receiver, and it is rather crude looks like stamped individually one number at a time, not even at all, but the serial number on the barrel is perfect, and dated 1942. ?? Unfortunately been sick and not have had opportunity to fire the rifle, if it shoots as well as the barrel looks i will be a happy camper and might shoot it in the vintage matches. Too bad former father in law is gone he would be very interested in all of this with the last name of Siekinen, and he told me once that he had relatives that fought against Russia, he served in US navy all of WWII, with the Russians as an ally but Finland in dispute enough to go to war against Russia. Technically thinking enemy of my enemy is my friend concept that would put Finland as an sally of Germany and a paper enemy of US, which i know is not true but technically speaking?
MasterChief
03-19-2014, 07:00
http://www.fototime.com/0483A4368D41EF5/large.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/50AE5906531CFE3/large.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/D82DE357C6085F2/large.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/020668F1B10E607/xlarge.jpg
My Finn collection.
madsenshooter
03-20-2014, 09:17
I don't know if SIG used tighter standards back then, like they did for my K31 which has a .306 groove diameter, .294 bore diameter, but even US standard would be a lot better than the .316 groove diameter Russian Mosin I bought.
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