DOH! Made a Dumb MIstake

[bigskybound]

Had a smith make me up an 03AForgery. Ordered one of those Chinese scope mounts for the Weaver 330 I have. Problem is, I bought the 7/8" rings instead of 3/4" rings:1930: Took two weeks for the mount and rings to get here. If I send them back, it will easily be a month before I have the right one. Anyone want to trade me 3/4" rings for the 7/8" rings? :icon_sunny:

[Col. Colt]

Or you could just trade/buy into a nice Lyman Alaskan, mount it and have a much better scope, to boot...... CC

[bigskybound]

Been looking at Alaskans. About 3-4x what my 330 cost or I could get for it. Also, I have been trying to stay true to the type of scopes issued in WW II. Either way, I get to pay for my lack of attention to auction details.

[pelago]

more 03A4 issued with the Alaskan than anything else up to 1945, mine is Lyman Alaskan from 1942 and is a tack driver

[chuckindenver]

sorry...no A4 was ever issued with anything but a Weaver 330C {M73B1} the Lyman Ak was a replacement.
as was the M82, M84 ect...
i have seen one combat news real on D day of an A4 with a Lyman AK..

[pelago]

interesting, have photos of Marines on Pelilieu during that campaign with 03A4's with the outline of the Alaskan ?? but also have photos of Marines using the 1941 on same island
maybe we are both right, one thing that was common and probably most true was the war was more important that any future history of who used what and when, also seen photos of 1941 with the original flat 03 stock and that was not supposed to have happened

[chuckindenver]

you said originally issued...when the 1903A4 was originally issued. it was with a M73B1.
the A4 was an Army sniper rifle.. the 1903A1 Snipers was a Marine issue rifle..
its been known for a while the A1 snipers rifle was made with a S stock.. the books are full of mistakes...
as the M73B1 failed a few other optics were installed, M81, M82 and M84..
you will find a few combat pictures with these scopes installed...but....thats not how they were originally built..or originally issued..
but...since the OPs question was in regards to a replica...more important is the quality and the scope being a match legal scope.
in that case...the Weaver K 2.5 is the choice i use.

[pelago]

never to old to learn,
thanks for information, copied this and put it into my Brophy book
sure wish there was a way to get some of these old rifles to talk, bet they would have some real stories to tell and some pretty dull, like guard duty at Brooklyn Navy Yard for four years
regards

[Col. Colt]

I would just note that the Alaskan was the original, prototype M1903A4 scope (according to pre-production pictures in one Army Manual) and it was designated M73. When it became apparent that Lyman's lense supplier, Bausch & Lomb, simply could not supply the required lense sets due to more critical War Work like sub periscopes and other more critical optics, the Weaver 330/M73b1 was quickly made the "issue" scope. Note that the Weaver was the M73b1. b=second choice.

Later, apparently post WWII and during the Korean War, the Alaskan WAS used on the 03A4, as a rebuild/replacement scope as the M73, M81, M82 Model Lyman Scopes. By Vietnam, the remaining 03A4s were fitted with M84s. So "All of The Above" were used, by the US Military, on the 03A4. And they always wanted the Alaskan - over the 330 Weaver.

So the best authentic, actually used in combat scope for the M1903A4 in Vintage Sniper Class would be a Lyman Alaskan, an original M73, M81 or M82 being the most "authentic", but functionally identical would be a commercial Lyman Alaskan. The 330 Weaver is a weak sister. The Weaver K 2.5 was never provably used in combat on the M1903A4 - though it is an excellent choice, functionally. CC

[bigskybound]

Thanks for the input. It is clear that many of you are matching up optics to rifles "as issued" in any conflict in which the 03s were used. However, being a weak sister aside, I have settled on replicating a WWII vintage 03A4 with a commercial Weaver 330, much like I replicated a Stevens 520-30 trench gun from commercial model - I just prefer the "look" and authenticity. As it is unlikely I will compete in vintage sniper matches, it is not so important to me to have the best optics. But perhaps later I will opt to convert to a Korean War era scope, and then an Alaskan it will be!

[pelago]

I would just note that the Alaskan was the original, prototype M1903A4 scope (according to pre-production pictures in one Army Manual) and it was designated M73. When it became apparent that Lyman's lense supplier, Bausch & Lomb, simply could not supply the required lense sets due to more critical War Work like sub periscopes and other more critical optics, the Weaver 330/M73b1 was quickly made the "issue" scope. Note that the Weaver was the M73b1. b=second choice.

Later, apparently post WWII and during the Korean War, the Alaskan WAS used on the 03A4, as a rebuild/replacement scope as the M73, M81, M82 Model Lyman Scopes. By Vietnam, the remaining 03A4s were fitted with M84s. So "All of The Above" were used, by the US Military, on the 03A4. And they always wanted the Alaskan - over the 330 Weaver.

So the best authentic, actually used in combat scope for the M1903A4 in Vintage Sniper Class would be a Lyman Alaskan, an original M73, M81 or M82 being the most "authentic", but functionally identical would be a commercial Lyman Alaskan. The 330 Weaver is a weak sister. The Weaver K 2.5 was never provably used in combat on the M1903A4 - though it is an excellent choice, functionally. CC
would anyone actually have taken the time and effort to re label or remark an Alaskan, i have a Lyman Alaskan that came off a A4 and have the redfield junior base that was milled by an unknown gunsmith to compensate for the curved bell of the Lyman, but cannot see any organization taking the time and effort to "re label" a Lyman Alaskan to military configuration. just does not make sense,

[Col. Colt]

I would assume that all military order Lyman Alaskans would have either M73, M81 or M82 markings, along with other "Military Issue" markings, some that were different from the Civilian gun shop sold scopes. It seems that the real contract scopes added military part numbers to some parts, and dropped the Alaskan markings.

That does not make it impossible that some of the commercial, over the counter Alaskans did not make it into the system. Rumor has it that some off the shelf civilian marked Alaskans were bought up at the start of the Korean War - for immediate usage before the "System" could catch up. I have seen references to "A" and "B" prefixed Serial numbers, but have never researched it myself.

As for fakery, it is pretty common these days, Sad to say. You need an expert opinion before you purchase anything very rare or valuable - or you are rolling the dice! CC

[pelago]

I would assume that all military order Lyman Alaskans would have either M73, M81 or M82 markings, along with other "Military Issue" markings, some that were different from the Civilian gun shop sold scopes. It seems that the real contract scopes added military part numbers to some parts, and dropped the Alaskan markings.

That does not make it impossible that some of the commercial, over the counter Alaskans did not make it into the system. Rumor has it that some off the shelf civilian marked Alaskans were bought up at the start of the Korean War - for immediate usage before the "System" could catch up. I have seen references to "A" and "B" prefixed Serial numbers, but have never researched it myself.

As for fakery, it is pretty common these days, Sad to say. You need an expert opinion before you purchase anything very rare or valuable - or you are rolling the dice! CC
question, to all of you that are far more expert than i am, my only reference is Brophy (i have a cloned A4 that has been pictured here before, and all the pieces and parts excluding receiver were from a destroyed A4 that i received in the 70's
seems that someone overloaded a lead bullet with pistol powder and "broke" the receiver big time. when the competitions started with CMP i decided to break out my history box and make one, used a Remington 03A3 receiver and a new issued Remington barrel, had all the other parts, stock and so forth) In the early days of WWII when once again USA caught with proverbial pants down and someone said 'we need sniper rifles' and the search for people and pieces and parts started, Brophy indicates that 'off the shelf Lyman used' I can understand later on that Lyman might have been engraved or overmarked with current, at time, nomenclature numbers.
in spring of 1942 with the disaster of Bataan looming heavy on Army chief of staff and the need for weapons that worked. I just would in my naivete thinking that there were people that only had the job of taking Lyman scopes out of a box and engraving M73 on them..
dunno, but the darn things are fun to shoot and luck of the draw mine is good enough to shoot cleans at 600 (shooting aspect of it is that i am not a bench shooter or a 'rest shooter' when i went back to sling which is allowed i do so much better, when shooting from rest seem to drag trigger and have a nice pattern from 9 ring to 9 ring.
shoots so good i have decided to make a clone of the 1942, only because i have two scopes one is a lyman target spot and the other is a unertl 8 power both in fantastic shape, so really easy decision to create another clone

[chuckindenver]

as i said earlier.
all 1903A4s were issued with the Weaver 330C or M73B1.
many scopes were used as replacements, and many were experimented with as well.
since your rifle is a replica...and makes you happy, and shoots the way you like with the Lyman AK...why change it?
my genuine A4 that i have in my stable, is one of the first 700 made...and i have a Lyman Ak on it as well, its a great scope, and shoots very well.
many years ago, i put a weaver 3x9 marksman on the rifle, and took a nice Wyoming buck Antelope with it.
sometimes we have to put the books down and enjoy what we have...rather then get sideways on whats in a book...
originally my rifle had a Weaver 330C..personally i think the 330C is a big POS.. however, if i were to ever sell my A4..id stick one on it, as it would fetch more money.

[jgaynor]

In December 1942 two(2) scopes were approved by Ordnance for use on the M1903A4, the Weaver 330C and the Lyman Alaskan. The M73B1 and M73 nomenclature followed several months later. Early production used the Weaver scope exclusively. The first Lyman Alaskans (M73) were supposed to be delivered in Sept 43 and the Weaver contract discontinued after the November 43 delivery.
Unfortunately the Alaskans could not be delivered due the inability of Lyman to obtain the necessary lens sets from Bausch and Lomb.
It is however clear that the A4 was designed or modified to use either of the scopes.

I can't account for sitings of Alaskans in what is purportedly combat footage. I suppose its possible some prototypes may have been fielded or personally owned scopes may have found their way on to issue rifles.

Very few real M73's were ever made and many that were were later modified and remarked "M81".
The M81 enjoyed a short life and limited production before being supplanted by th post reticle "M82".
In 1945 ordnance designed the M84 which was intended to provide improved resistance to moisture penetration compared to the scopes that preceeded it.

[pelago]

I wonder, just wonder it there might be some retired guys still around that actually used either an A4 or a 1941, anywhere in WWII, probably have some Korean guys around, but WWII as we all know are just leaving us in huge numbers
Just lose a 'cruising buddy' Bob Turner, flew B17's over Europe in WWII, then retrained and flew B29's over Japan. I would have considered him a true hero, but i for one would like to meet some of these guys that used them, saw (forgot which station) on tv where the Army got a old retired sniper to a range and he shot an A4 to a steel target and first shot out of barrel he hit steel at 1000 yards.
that was so impressive, the man was in his 80's then if i am incorrect please correct me, but didnt they give him the rifle.
but these rifles are a fascinating topic, small part of US history, How the snipers of WWI just melted in to the woodwork and the rifles did also, then we got hammered and the USA had to start all over again
but for all of you guys, thanks for your input and stories, I have had some success going to library and requesting certain books, and darn they get em too
Ira
here is my attempt to copy the real deal
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/1903A44.jpg

[jgaynor]

IRA try and lay your hands on a copy of the Journal of the Remington Society of America Fall 2004. 20 page article By Bill Hansen, "Snarls, Snafus and Snipers - Stories Behind the M1903A4 Sniper Rifle". Clear ly the best single source on A4 production. Clark Campbell's 2003 Edition also has worth while material. Brophy is solid but i don't think contract rifles were his main interest.

An excellent source on the Lyman scopes is The Grand Collectors Journal Fall 2004. The artlcle is by Bob Seijas and Johnny Bell and is entitled "M81 and M82 Telescopic Sights for the M1C Sniper". Despite the title some use of the scopes on A4's is covered and it is very valuable material.

The following link is the minutes of the committee that approved the A4 for production. See page 25 Para 6.:

http://www.nicolausassociates.com/PDF/M1903A4%20Sniper%20Rifle%20Adoption%20-%2010%20December%201942.pdf

Regards,
Jim

[chuckindenver]

Grossmans book has a lot of great scope pics on trial scopes on the 1917 , 1903, and 1903A4.

[pelago]

will take this list to library and ask them to go to UNC and pull books, they will do that and get the books from other states if they need to
thanks

[pelago]

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIXrbDdSnk8A.Rf7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByZW c0dGJtBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMQ--?p=ImposShotTGundy.wmv&vid=91604c00a87264d086de8601e131dd4d&l=8%3A06&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.50 48138170435345%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQ RpAxGVg4M&tit=ImposShotTGundy.wmv&c=0&sigr=11ailcm4q&age=0&&tt=b

not sure if i am doing this right but for you guys out there that are computer sharp should be able to get it

[rickgman]

I have personally seen USGI Lyman Alaskan scopes (M73 configuration). They were not marked as such but they had elevation and windage caps with USGI part numbers. Some were also obviously rebuilt since they were parkerized. The presence of 7/8" USGI rings indicates that use of M73, M81 and M82 scopes were intended for use on M1903A4's following rebuild.