View Full Version : Strange Japanese Rifle (?)
Tom in N.J.
06-10-2013, 10:33
A friend of mine sent me this photo of Japanese troops on Corregidor. What kind of rifle is the man on the right holding??
but it looks like a sporting rifle, rather than a military one. Possibly captured with the defenders of Corregidor.
Actually, I'd like to imagine I can make out the front sight, shadow of a Lyman 48 receiver sight, and suggestion of a cocking piece knob, which would make it a sporterized Springfield, maybe even an NRA Sporter. But that's stretching what can actually be seen...
mhb - Mike
The guy holding it does not seem to be wearing all the gear the others have. Perhaps an officer? Using anything he wants? It sure is a sporter, I agree, probably a captured rifle.
In Col John Olson's book "Anywhere-Anytime" the history of the 57th Infantry PS on Bataan, shows on page 154, that Gen Wainwright presented Col Lilly on March 11, 1942, his Springfield 1903 sporter. I am sure some of the US officers purchased either NM 1903's or 1903 Sporters during the 1930's as personal weapons. The rifle in the photo sure looks like a 1903 Sporter !
that, if it is an NRA Sporter, it had earned its owner, whoever he was, some few notches.
You could do a lot worse than an NRA Sporter for that sort of shooting match.
mhb - Mike
That almost looks like a Krag carbine he is holding but it's hard to tell from the photo. What ever it is it's definitely not a full size rifle.
a Krag carbine: the barrel is too long, the stock is wrongly proportioned, and has a pistol grip, among other details. It does appear to be a full sized 1903 (the Sporter and the issue rifles both had 24" barrels), if that is what it is, but with the (a) sporter stock.
mhb - Mike
That almost looks like a Krag carbine he is holding but it's hard to tell from the photo. What ever it is it's definitely not a full size rifle.
Did '03 sporters have hand grooves in stock?
Front sight looks to me like it matches the profile of an 03 sight perfectly.
they don't. At least, the NRA Sporter does not.
This is another of the uncertainties about what we see in the photo: are there finger grooves? But the profile of the stock, especially the fact that it is pistol-gripped, make it obvious (to me, at least) that this is not a standard Krag carbine. Then, too, if those are finger grooves on the stock, the sideplate of the Krag magazine should be visible, as well, were it a Krag action.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it...
mhb - Mike
Did '03 sporters have hand grooves in stock?
Rick the Librarian
06-11-2013, 08:14
It would be interesting if someone could locate a full resolution picture or scan of the picture and see. Picture taken at either Battery Hearn or Smith on Corregidor.
I agree---not a Krag or a NRA sporter (stock at least). Face it---we will never know!
Could it be a '03 M1 or M2, .22 rifle? Who's to say one didn't make it to the Phillpines?
But it's clear to me that the profile of the stock in the photo is that of the M1922/NRA stock, rather than the 'for issue' .22 stock, and the NRA stocks I have are without grasping grooves, both the cal. .30 and .22 types.
So, if you are sure that the photo shows grasping grooves, more explanation is needed.
mhb - Mike
I have a 22 stock and it has grasping grooves and they are quite long as the ones in picture seem to be!
that there are 2 types of .22 Springfield stock: 1: The 'for issue' type, which has grasping grooves and a lot more drop in the stock (as well as a less sharply curved pistol grip) and a buttplate of the same style and dimension as the service stock, and:
2: The NRA style .22 stock, which is proportioned exactly the same as the NRA Sporter stock, has no grasping grooves, and uses the same buttplate as the NRA Sporter. This was the standard stock supplied on the .22 rifle sold to NRA members, though they could also buy the 'for issue' style - of which E.C. Crossman said '...you could not run fast enough to give one to a real rifleman'. That may be a bit harsh, but the NRA stock really is much better for the sportsman/target shooter, and it is the NRA stock which I believe matches the contours of that in the photo. It definitely does not have grasping grooves, normally, so that aspect of the photo is still subject to debate, in my mind.
The rifle could also be a .30 Sporter made and/or stocked by someone other than SA, or a .22 with a custom stock of similar profile to the NRA Sporter/.22 sales stock.
Later:
In the interest of completeness, and at risk of adding further confusion, I should note that the original 1922 stock, which was used on the 1922 ca. .30 Match rifle and the first few of the original 1922 cal. .22 rifles, while of the contour of the later NRA style stock, did, in fact, have grasping grooves. Just over 2000 1922 .22 rifles were made, and fewer sold to NRA members, so that the number of such with grasping grooves must be small, indeed. Nearly all of the original 1922 .22 rifles were overhauled and updated, first to the M1 specification, and later, to M2 style: in both cases, rifles which came back through the Armory were re-fitted with the later, grooveless stock, and the receivers marked to show the update as 'MI', and/or 'MII'. Those rifles made as M2s initially are so-marked on the receiver, and, if fitted with the NRA stock, have no grasping grooves. The 1922 and M1 .22 rifles have a headless cocking piece, while the M2 has a larger-diameter, thinner cocking piece than the cal. .30 rifles, and I believe the standard cocking piece is visible in the photo. The 1922 cal. .22 rifles have a magazine which protrudes a good half inch below the floorplate, while the M1 and M2 types have a shorter magazine which can still be distinguished when in the rifle.
The 1922 cal .30 match rifles, which are truly rare, have a unique 24" heavy barrel, an unmistakeable front sight base integral with the muzzle of the barrel, and a headless cocking piece - and the rifle in the photo is not that.
In the end, I don't think there is enough information clearly visible in the photo to make a definite identification possible.
mhb - Mike
My stock is as #1. I installed issue recoil bolts in it and a RI .30 cal action/barrel and used it for target shooting for years. Lyman peep and issue front. It is a very accurate rifle, haven't shot it for years tho. Thanks for the info.
for the information.
And, FWIW, I did essentially the same thing with my first 1903 - also a RIA - when the original barrel wore-out. I installed a 4-groove Remington 03A3 barrel, a Lyman 48 and 17A, and mounted the barreled action in the issue M2 .22 stock (I'd have preferred the 'Sales' type stock, but didn't have one at the time). I did not install stock bolts, but did glass-bed the action.
It shot extremely well.
mhb - Mike
My stock is as #1. I installed issue recoil bolts in it and a RI .30 cal action/barrel and used it for target shooting for years. Lyman peep and issue front. It is a very accurate rifle, haven't shot it for years tho. Thanks for the info.
Who is saying it has to be an issued rifle or as produced? Why can't it be a custom sporting rifle?
nobody's saying that, and I think we covered that possibility quite early in the discussion. The rest of the thread got diverted into which of the possible SA-produced stocks it might be, and which of those it most resembles.
mhb - Mike
nobody's saying that, and I think we covered that possibility quite early in the discussion. The rest of the thread got diverted into which of the possible SA-produced stocks it might be, and which of those it most resembles.
mhb - Mike
Kind of my point. It seems like you guys pretty much ruled it out but then started grasping for rarer possibilities, when the most likely answer is that it was a sporter rifle used by some officer to hunt small game.
having already said that the thread sorta went off on a discussion of unlikely alternatives, I'll point out that it wasn't me who lead the parade. I was and am willing to discuss alternatives proposed in the process, though my own belief, based on what can be seen in the photo, has not changed: the rifle shown is most likely a sporterized 1903 Springfield.
mhb - Mike
Kind of my point. It seems like you guys pretty much ruled it out but then started grasping for rarer possibilities, when the most likely answer is that it was a sporter rifle used by some officer to hunt small game.
Devil Dog
06-26-2013, 05:50
What Japanese soldier would carry a .22 rifle in combat?
that anyone suggested the rifle was actually a .22, though it could have been. It appears to be a sporting rifle, and speculation was that it was a sporterized 1903 Springfield in .30-06.
The rifle is almost certainly a captured or surrendered piece, and not what the Japanese soldier would have used in combat.
The topic got sidetracked on the features of the stock, itself, which led to a discussion of the various types of 'sporter-appearing' stocks used by Springfield Armory on its NRA Sporter rifles in cal. .30 and its several models of .22 rifles: both calibers were furnished with very similar stocks.
However, at the end, we don't have enough information to say with certainty exactly what the pictured rifle is, except that it is not a purely military type.
mhb - Mike
What Japanese soldier would carry a .22 rifle in combat?
Nothing about the photo would prevent it from being a .22 or any other form of craziness. I have seen plenty of soldiers holding up some seriously stupid war trophies. You don't get to pick and choose what the enemy leaves behind.
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