View Full Version : Bolt interchangeability
6thMARDIV
04-21-2013, 04:47
How safe is it to randomly interchange bolts between '03's without head spacing ? I saw this done on a couple of rifles at a WW1 Re-enactment this weekend. They were of course shooting blanks.
because there is no way to know that the wear on either of the receivers or bolts is the same - and you may be sure that nearly all 1903 receivers and most of the bolts are worn to some extent - nor that either of the original assemblies were within the proper range of headspace in the first place.
Remember that the bolts were selectively fitted in rebuild when the barrel was not replaced, and that, any time the barrel was replaced (or in new manufacture), the chamber was reamed to be within tolerance with the selected bolt, which might be new or used.
It is also true that receivers and bolts, new or used, were gauged to determine whether they were within permissible tolerance ranges before they were assembled, and that those parts which did not pass gauging were scrapped, but hardly anyone assembling 1903's these days has the means to do more than attempt to keep headspace within the proper limits with available parts.
At this late date, all that most users can do is check that headspace is correct in existing rifles, and change bolts or rebarrel to keep them so - otherwise, all bets are off.
Interchanging bolts without checking headspace, even for arms used only with blanks, is bad practice.
mhb - Mike
Johnny in Texas
04-21-2013, 05:53
I quick check method to check headspace on '03 rifle is to remover the firing pin assembly from the bolt it just unscrews and remove the extractor.. Then using a new factory live round and a small piece of note book paper put the live in the chamber with the small paper just smaller than the case head stuck to it with saliva or what ever you have not glue. then install the bolt and slowly start to close the bolt with a very light touch. You should feel resistance before the bolt closes or about half closed is best. If it closes do not fire the rifle. This is just a quick method see if it is close or over.
since the average piece of paper measures .003" - .004", the maximum cartridge headspace (longest permissible cartridge case) is on the order of +.001", and the minimum to maximum permissible variation ('Go' to 'No Go') is .006" in the rifle, not to mention that the 'Field' gauge is .010" over the minimum (and is used only to determine when the headspace has become too long for military serviceability), that is a pretty rough test.
Indeed, any error (closing on the combination suggested) would likely be on the safe side, but would not actually demonstrate that the headspace was unsafe or excessive. Better to stick with the proper gauges.
mhb - Mike
Glad to see someone else state that a 'field gauge' is not acceptable as "safe" indication. I have had many arguements over this! I have read (may have been Hatcher) that if rifle closes on a 'field' gauge it can be used till it can be returned for repair. Thats why its called a field gauge---to be used only when you are stuck in the field and may need a rifle!
chuckindenver
04-22-2013, 07:36
Go...should close easy and smooth
No go..should not close....hinse the term NO GO.
Field Reject...should not close. the term REJECT comes to mind.
likely most bolts in good working order should swap rifle to rifle, however, a No go gauge should be used.
[QUOTE=mhb;303071]because there is no way to know that the wear on either of the receivers or bolts is the same - and you may be sure that nearly all 1903 receivers and most of the bolts are worn to some extent - nor that either of the original assemblies were within the proper range of headspace in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mot true, a more true statement would go more correctly when stated
It is possible for me to remove a bolt from a chamber with a know chamber length and measure the effect it had on head space then order another bolt that had a greater ability to off set the length of the chamber from the the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, PROBLEM! Finding someone else that could measure a bucket of bolts to determine which bolt would off set the length of the chamber as in decrease the length of the chamber or increase the length of the chamber.
A few years back a shooter, reloader builder of period correct military rifles was building a period correct 1911 Rock Island 1903 rifle, he was making every attempt to work with a 1903 Forum, then the word ‘head space’ came up, then it became a dysfunctional 03 forum, anyhow, I purchased a mill from him about that time. We loaded it and rounder up a few related pieces. Then the subject of head space came up, I informed him “THIS IS YOUR LUCKY DAY”. I informed him I could check the length of the chamber three different ways, all I needed to was time to check his walls, benches and tool boxes for tools, sure enough, he had a feeler gage and the ammo he was going to use to test fire the rifle with.
I checked the effect the chamber was going to have on his new, minimum length/full length sized cases, the difference between the length of his chamber and the length of his cases was .0075, in the perfect world that number would have been .005”. He wanted to reduce the .0075. Not a problem, he did not have less than 70 bolts, I offered to test all of them, I offered to return home and measure my bolts (without his rifle), I have no less than 35 03 type bolts. Back to ‘problem’, his Rock Island was to be period correct, that meant he needed a straight handle. He did not have another straight handle, I do/did not have a straight handle, I assured him I did not have a bolt that would correct .0025” head space, I had already measured them. The same man building the period correct rifle recorded all the information from my bolts and then added to a data base.
NOW? He has at least 5 straight handle bolts that he acquired from other collectors/builders.
F. Guffey
Length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face, the case does not have a head space designation, only a case length from the datum to the head of the case.
Again, the 03 is unique, Springfield did not build the design into the rifle, it was an accident, Hatcher did not notice it, but the bolt on the 03 is limited when moving to the rear, the bolt stops when the bolt lugs make contact, that is the same for all rifles, difference? The 03 bolt, not by design, moves forward, to limit the forward movement the proud owner can chamber a round,, OR! a head space go-gage OR! a no go-gage.
Again, not by design, the 03 has an exposed 3rd lug with a gap between the front of the rear receiver ring and the back of the lug, the gap is less with the old bolts than the newer 03A3 bolts, to determine the difference in length between the chamber and and case length seat the bolt to the rear and measure the gap, then push the bolt forward and measure the gap again, the difference in the two gaps with the head space gage(s) or case chambered equals the difference in length between the case and chamber in thousandths.
It is not necessary to be the first to post “When checking head space? remove the firing pin assembly and and extractor” Removing the firing pin assemble and extractor is not necessary.
F. Guffey
I think you're getting wrapped around the axle on points that have nothing to do with the original question: is it safe to interchange bolts among 1903 rifles.
My answer was no, and I gave some of the reasons why that is so for the average user(s) - what a knowledgeable person can do with the proper equipment and parts is another matter.
Later, someone posted a rough method of testing headspace, which I also commented on.
My comments on the state of wear on existing receivers and bolts are correct: I've assembled, rebarreled and worked on a large number of 1903 rifles of all vintages and types. I have the means to measure any and all of the critical dimensions of the receiver and bolt, and have some of the original Ordnance gauges and tools and enough parts to assemble a number of complete rifles with either brand-new or used parts (though I do not currently have a spare new receiver, I have had several spare parts and sales receivers in the past).
I have also encountered bolts with enough wear to the locking lugs to permit the safety lug to bear on the receiver, though the minimum clearance is specified as .004" - such bolts should be scrapped, because that is a known unsafe condition, and even though the safety lug might be ground shorter to restore the clearance and a new barrel might be installed and correctly headspaced by gauging, the worn lugs permit even more of the cartridge head to be unsupported beyond the chamber mouth, which is an unsafe condition. I've also found receivers with lug seats worn enough to permit the safety lug of a new bolt to contact the receiver - that is why Ordnance required a field test bolt be used to gauge receivers returned for rebuild, and scrapped any which failed gauging. To assemble a rifle with a severely worn receiver and bolt is asking for trouble, and no gunsmith who knows better should ever do such a thing - even though it may be possible to make it pass headspace gauging perfectly. No mechanical assembly will withstand infinite service and wear without accumulating stress and dimensional changes, and many of the remaining 1903 receivers and bolts have been used and abused far beyond what Ordnance would have permitted. Then, falling into the hands of less scrupulous commercial dealers, they have been re-finished, reassembled and sold to the unwary and unknowing - most of whom never experience any real trouble - through luck. Sooner or later, luck runs out. If you know better than to depend on it, you should tell those who don't yet know, but have the sense to ask the right questions, the facts they need. Then they can decide what to do without having to rely on their luck alone.
I used the term headspace with regard to the cartridge because the rifle must be adjusted to function safely with the permissible variations in cartridge length from the datum point to the head of the case, and, as that length is not fixed (as it cannot be in large-scale manufacture), wanted to explain why the cartridge case is not really a suitable substitute for a proper gauge.
And, finally, I try hard to respond to questions I know the answers to in the simplest terms, rather than responding with a core dump to demonstrate whatever else I know - however interesting such information may be to me, it doesn't really help clarify the original issue. And if more information is needed or wanted, the original questioner can ask for it.
mhb - Mike
mhb, You do not owe me an explanation, I read your response, I read your rational, I understood everything you posted. You on the other hand are not under any obligation nor is there is demand on my part for you to make any attempt to ever try to understand what I said.
The first 20 bolts I pick up and installed as a replacement bolt will not change the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face .001â€, if I needed a bolt that has an effect on the length of the chamber I could call and ask, if there was anyone that knew how to measure the bolts effect on the length of the chamber. That leaves me to driving to Irvine and or Grand Prairie with my measurements to compare measurements with two sources of bolts in the Dallas/FT, Worth area.
I understood the question, “Dangerous?†One more time, it does not have to be, ignorance is dangerous, ignorance is ‘not knowing’. Nothing drives me to the curb, nothing locks me up, just because the bolt closes the light does not have to go out. The bolt on an 03 will not close on a 280 Remington case, but! if it did ATTEMPT closing the bolt on a 280 Remington case I would know the chamber on the 03 is at least .046†longer than a 30/06 chamber. If I did chamber a 280 Remington case in a 30/06 chamber and the bolt lacked .046†CLOSING I WOULD KNOW THE 30/06 CHAMBER WAS GO-GAGE LENGTH.
Because I am a case former/reloader, with presses and dies, including forming dies, all with threads I can use a 280 Remington cases to form 30/06 cases, I know, with all the 30/06 cases around, why would anyone form 30/06 cases? Simple, I can form 15 cases with 15 different lengths from .000 (minimum case length) to +015†longer that a minimum length/full length sized case. Back to the coveted head space gages, they come in 3 sizes, first is the go-gage, .005†longer than the minimum length case, the no go-gage .004†longer than the go-gage (.009†longer than the minimum length case), then there is the field (reject) gage, it is .014†longer than the minimum length/full length sized case, .009†longer than the go-gage, .005†longer than the no go-gage. Then we go back to Hatcher, he moved the shoulder forward .070â€, he had a difference in length between his chamber and case of .075â€, mhb, if you are keeping up that is .060†beyond the field reject gage. DANGEROUS? Hatcher knew when he started the case could not stretch that far. Back to dangerous and not knowing. and ‘it does not have to be that way.
And the standard from a forum reads like this “Purchase extra bolts just in case the head space? (length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face) is not correct, AND there is a chance you can get lucky with one of the extra boltsâ€.
F. Guffey
The man I purchased the mill from, he had a box of go, no and beyond gages, he took them out and handed them to me, and I ask????? “You know the bolt closes on the go-gage?” “You know the bolt will not close on the no go-gage?” “You want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths?” Again, the length of his chamber was .0075” longer than a minimum length case, he had a new, over the counter, unfired box of 20 Remington ammo, we checked the length of his new ammo from the shoulder to the head of the case, total spread .0005” and that ‘my friend? is better than his box of head space gages. Then to explain the box of gages, the man that gave them to him measured the gages and proclaimed “I can do better than that!”
Back to “driving me into the curb” A go-gage can be converted to a go to infinity-gage, but, there just does not seem to be anything beyond talking about it.
F. Guffey
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
I addressed you directly because you took exception to something I posted in clarification of one of the responses to the original question which started this thread.
I believe my answers to that original post were concise, accurate, and sufficient to satisfy the original poster's need for information, and that the added comments on the suggested ad-hoc headspace test were appropriate, also.
Having carefully re-read (again) all that you have contributed thusfar, I have to say that I can find no added value to the original discussion - neither can I determine what pertinent points (if any) you were trying to make. I believe there is no point in continuing this particular exchange.
And, FWIW, I do have a copy of Hatcher's Notebook - but none of Hatcher's experiments under controlled conditions can be taken as an indication of assured safety to the average shooter who controls few, if any, of the many variables in the arms and ammunition he uses.
If you still feel it necessary to continue with this thread, please address your remarks to one of the other posters: I have nothing further to add, and no interest in argument for its own sake.
mhb - Mike
Hey guys, on my hunting rifles (1903A3) the bolts are nicely modified for the scopes. The bolts "origin and vintage" cannot be seen because of the handle change. They could even be pre 1918, I'll never know. I recheck the headspace now and then. It is always good with the go and no-go gauges. No worries??
FGuffey said that an 03 bolt has a different measurement on one of the lugs, than the same lug on an 03A3? I would like to determine the original bolt type, from this measurement, if you could explain how to go about this. Thanks Tom.
are functionally interchangeable. The dimensional difference referred to is the clearance allowed between the safety lug and the rear receiver wall: in the 1903, the minimum permissible clearance is .004". The A3 bolts were manufactured to give a much larger clearance at the same point, but, in neither case should the safety lug ever contact the receiver wall - it is only intended to prevent the bolt from being blown rearward out of the receiver in the event both forward locking lugs fail (and does serve somewhat to steady and guide the bolt in its movement).
In addition, the A3 bolts are generally much more roughly machined, and have an area of visibly smaller diameter around the safety lug as a result of simplified machining, while 1903 bolt bodies are smooth for their full length.
If you have any doubts about the bolts in your rifles, some photos should allow them to be identified (roughly) as to original type, as would any markings remaining on the bolt handle root or safety lug.
mhb - Mike
Hey guys, on my hunting rifles (1903A3) the bolts are nicely modified for the scopes. The bolts "origin and vintage" cannot be seen because of the handle change. They could even be pre 1918, I'll never know. I recheck the headspace now and then. It is always good with the go and no-go gauges. No worries??
FGuffey said that an 03 bolt has a different measurement on one of the lugs, than the same lug on an 03A3? I would like to determine the original bolt type, from this measurement, if you could explain how to go about this. Thanks Tom.
FGuffey said that an 03 bolt has a different measurement on one of the lugs, than the same lug on an 03A3? I would like to determine the original bolt type, from this measurement, if you could explain how to go about this. Thanks Tom.[/QUOTE]
There is period correct, a different question, then there are replacement bolts, I do not have less than 30 Springfield bolts, most are (new) replacement bolts, I have two boxes of Brown and Sharp replacement bolts with two bolts in each box, logic? would suggest the two bolts would be different when off setting the length of the chamber, did not happen, both bolts are the identical .
Difference? The replacement bolt’s (exposed) third safety lug is forward of the third lug on the original 03s, Again, had Springfield and or Hatcher noticed the third lug and the gap between the rear of the lug and the rear receiver ring (sight bridge on bolt set-back could have been monitored from the beginning. The gap could have been established and monitored from the beginning, Again, the gap is smaller on the older 03 bolts than on later bolts.
It would make little to no sense to build a replacement bolt with close tolerance if the bolt was to be built to replace and fit any 03 from Springfield and or Rock Island to Remington A3 and Remington 03A3 and Smith Corona.
From the beginning the gap could have been used as a tool, today the gap can be used as a tool for a 03 owner, for a small investment of $11.00 +/- $5.00 the owner of an 03 type Springfield can measure the difference between the length of a go-gage and the chamber, O have head space gages, I make go gages, I do not shoot head space gages, I shoot ammo, I use the gap between the rear of the third safety lug and front of the rear receiver ring when deterring the difference in length between the chamber and case from the shoulders to the bolt face and shoulder of the case to the head of the case.
Then there are bolts used at arsenals by smiths that are know only in pictures, I have one that is stamped Bonny Forge.
Again, I have little interest in knowing if a go-gage will allow the bolt to close, I have little interest in knowing if the bolt will close on a no go-gage, anyone with an understand of a micrometer and it’s use can determine the length of a chamber on an 03 with just a field reject gage.
http://www.vishooter.net/m1903.html
F. Guffey
chuckindenver
04-25-2013, 02:17
if you have a couple sporterized hunting rifles based on the 1903, and the bolts have worked and gauged ok, for years, i dont see them changing..
check them now and then, and always look for signs of pressure or headspace issues on your fired brass.
deal with the issue as it comes up.
keith smart
04-25-2013, 04:33
check them now and then, and always look for signs of pressure or headspace issues on your fired brass.
deal with the issue as it comes up.
AMEN
`My gosh!!
--The FIRST rifle is a correct SC, not modified. I pulled out of my safe, has the "square safety lug",and it has a "huge gap" between rear of safety lug, and the front shroud on the rifle. (I can easily stack 4 business cards together and they will fit into the space,.
--The SECOND rifle is same set-up (correct SC) non modified. Again, need 4 business cards to fill the gap.
--The THIRD rifle SC hunting rifle, with modified bolt. Again, need 4 business cards to fill the gap.
--The FOURTH rifle is Rem 1903A3 hunting rifle, WE HAVE A PROBLEM. "NO business cards" can get into the slot, it is metal-to-metal. Now it has even FAILED head spacing. It will close on both head space guages. So, I assume the bad H.S. is because there is no gap, and the safety lug is riding, back, against the front of the tunnel??
So what should I do about this last rifle?. I have a box of about 10 bolts, some are new Smith Corona (with the x), but I may even have another mod bolt.
I'm going to the club tomorrow and was going to shoot a bunch of my guns, so maybe I'll put a new bolt in, then H.S.it.
By all means try another bolt (or bolts) in the rifle with excess headspace. If the safety lug is actually bearing on the receiver, the locking lugs are likely very worn, or have been modified - they may not be in contact with the lug seats in the receiver at all. Remember, though, that the 1903 bolts were supposed to have a minimum of .004" clearance with the receiver, and that business cards are considerably thicker than that. What you need to check the clearance properly is a feeler gauge. In any case, if the bolt closes on the 'No-Go' gauge, you should try to correct that condition, and the safety lug must not touch.
If the safety lug is in contact, it is a result, not the cause of, the excess headspace condition.
mhb - Mike
`My gosh!!
--The FIRST rifle is a correct SC, not modified. I pulled out of my safe, has the "square safety lug",and it has a "huge gap" between rear of safety lug, and the front shroud on the rifle. (I can easily stack 4 business cards together and they will fit into the space,.
--The SECOND rifle is same set-up (correct SC) non modified. Again, need 4 business cards to fill the gap.
--The THIRD rifle SC hunting rifle, with modified bolt. Again, need 4 business cards to fill the gap.
--The FOURTH rifle is Rem 1903A3 hunting rifle, WE HAVE A PROBLEM. "NO business cards" can get into the slot, it is metal-to-metal. Now it has even FAILED head spacing. It will close on both head space guages. So, I assume the bad H.S. is because there is no gap, and the safety lug is riding, back, against the front of the tunnel??
So what should I do about this last rifle?. I have a box of about 10 bolts, some are new Smith Corona (with the x), but I may even have another mod bolt.
I'm going to the club tomorrow and was going to shoot a bunch of my guns, so maybe I'll put a new bolt in, then H.S.it.
`My gosh!!
--The FOURTH rifle is Rem 1903A3 hunting rifle, WE HAVE A PROBLEM. "NO business cards" can get into the slot, it is metal-to-metal. Now it has even FAILED head spacing. It will close on both head space guages. So, I assume the bad H.S. is because there is no gap, and the safety lug is riding, back, against the front of the tunnel??
So what should I do about this last rifle?. I have a box of about 10 bolts, some are new Smith Corona (with the x), but I may even have another mod bolt.
I'm going to the club tomorrow and was going to shoot a bunch of my guns, so maybe I'll put a new bolt in, then H.S.it.
“--The FOURTH rifle is Rem 1903A3 hunting rifle, WE HAVE A PROBLEM. "NO business cards" can get into the slot, it is metal-to-metal. Now it has even FAILED head spacing. It will close on both head space guages. So, I assume the bad H.S. is because there is no gap, and the safety lug is riding, back, against the front of the tunnel??
So what should I do about this last rifle?. I have a box of about 10 bolts, some are new Smith Corona (with the x), but I may even have another mod boltâ€
The ‘no-gap’ is caused by the location of the third lug, again, older bolts have the set-back third lug. Business cards, there is a micrometer that counts paper sheets in a stack, it also works for business cards, I use the feeler gage, from the beginning it has been called a ‘thickness gage’ $5.00 + a little from Harbor Freight, $11.00 from other suppliers.
The Problem! The third lug is a JIC thing as in just in case something goes wrong with the front lugs, if the third lug is supporting the bolt there is a chance the two front lugs are not supporting the bolt, POINT? The third/rear/safety lug must not contact the rear receiver ring.
Changing the bolt to a replacement bolt as in the 10 +/- bolts in your bucket, by description they are replacement bolts meaning the third lug/safety lug is not set back. Again, when replacing the bolt it is possible to determine the effect each bolt has on off setting the length of the chamber with a go-gage and or ammo that is going to be fired if the person doing the testing has a feeler gage/thickness gage.
Chamber the go-gage, pull the bolt back to seat the lugs, then measure the gap, in thousandths, between the third lug and front of the rear receiver ring, then push the bolt forward and measure again, the difference between the two readings indicate the difference between the length of the gage and the length of the chamber. Or, use the ammo that is going to be fired, ME? I do not shoot gages, I shoot ammo.
If there are any reloaders among members of this forum it gets easier, All of my presses and dies have threads, threads make it possible for me to adjust my dies to the shell holder making it possible to control the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case, meaning I size cases/form cases that are for short chambers, I size/form cases for long chambers. For short chambers I form cases that are .012†shorter than a minimum length case, I form cases for chambers that are measured to be .002†longer than a field reject chamber, that is 28 different length cases separated by .001†each. Point? Head space gages come in three lengths.
F. Guffey
chuckindenver
04-26-2013, 07:00
something everyone has over looked.
modified bolts,.. EA.. turned down to clear a scope...some are done right, and whoever did the work had skill.
however.
most iv seen, were done by someone with a hammer, grinder and a torch. no heat sink. ect.
a warped or distoreted bolt forced into a rifle can destroy the locking weighs...
without having the rifle in my hands...anything at this point would be like the rest , a shot in the dark.
Chuck in Denver, he did not say the bolt handle was binding, dragging and or touching the rear receiver ring, plus there is nothing about the bolt handle that can cause the bolt to be pulled to the rear and shorten the gap.. Again, I said it is possible to measure a bolt to determine the effect it can have on the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. I also said I am hard pressed to find someone can make that measurement.
The M1917 Enfield is a British design, it does not have the third Mauser lug, the M1917 uses the bolt handle (root) for the (JIC) safety, when modifying the bolt handle on the M1917 it must be fitted if the bold handle is cut off at the bolt body. But ‘if’ the leaver policy is applied the root of the bolt handle on both rifles will not change the configuration.
â€...anything at this point would be like the rest , a shot in the darkâ€
Leaver policy: In these matters I apply the leaver policy, I leaver the way I founder.
I have 03 type bolts that have a drilled and tapped hole through the root of bolt handle.
Third Mauser lug: The third Mauser (safety/JIC) lug is not exposed when the bolt is closed, when modifying the bolt handle on the 98 type Mauser the bolt handle does not touch the rear of the receiver ring until it is raised, when raised, the bolt cams back.
F. Guffey
and he said he had a bucket of 10 bolts, he also said he thought one of them had a modified handle, “anything at this point would be like the rest , a shot in the dark†in my way of thinking that gives him 9 shots in the light and one chance he will not find it necessary to remove the scope. I have nothing against this the owner of the Springfield knowing everything there is to know about his rifle.
F. Guffey
Thanks guys. I have removed the questionable bolt. I went through my bolts and installed another one (S/C). It is very hard to get it through the tunnel. No other bolt would go through the tunnel, not even with a rubber hammer. But now this one is in now and headspaces good, and I have a gap between lug and and receiver.
The bad bolt appears to have modified front lugs, they are filed down sorta. Not from wear, but I see file marks. I will add pictures tonight.
It's 80 degrees out, coyotes are out, and I'm heading to my secret spot in the desert. The one in my little picture.
Through the tunnel, also know as a rear receiver ring, then there is another name, on some rifles the rear receiver ring is referred to as being the rear sight bridge. If the bolt is having trouble when installing check for screws that are too long, the screws will be holding the scope mounts to the receiver. If your bolt has been filed/altered the person that installed the scope mounts could have thought it necessary to grind the bolt, a better choice would have been to use shorter screws.
F. Guffey
Thanks fg, Ya, I know what it's called, but I'm thinking of new people who would be lost like I was for so long, before I bought books.
Problem is not the screws, they do not extend through. Perhaps the rifle has been dropped and the rear sight bridge is crushed. However, the forward lugs are already through that area, upon binding. Wish I had time now for pictures. I'm going to shoot this rifle today and see where the blueing wears. Tom
Forgive, then comes the/another consideration, a friend gave me a M38 Turkish Mauser, we both know where the rifle came from, there was no way a bolt could be installed, I informed my friend the owner attempted removing the barrel with a block stuck through the receiver, he twisted it, I said something like “all that is required to straighten it is a set up table etc., “, anyhow, he kept the receiver, straightened it then installed a new 6.5mm55barrel.
If your bolts will not install consider the receiver is twisted, or crushed?
F. Guffey
chuckindenver
04-26-2013, 12:49
this rifle has more issues then a bolt and headspace.
post a picture...lets see it..
without having the rifle in my hands...it would be a waste of time.
this rifle has more issues then a bolt and headspace.
post a picture...lets see it..
without having the rifle in my hands...it would be a waste of time.
I think we've taken over the original poster's post. My apologies to Marine from Virginia.
Photo 1. Modified bolt rides against the rear receiver ring. No gap. (ejector is removed for photo).
Photo 2. Same
Photo 3. New bolt does not ride on the receiver ring. (Plenty of gap)(four business cards).
Photo 4. Side-by-side view of front of bolts. Do we see the cause of headspace problem?
Photo 5. SA extractor, was just wondering what the punch-marks mean.
"Click-on" photo to enlarge.
as to photo #4: No. The problem which might cause excess headspace would be on the back of the locking lugs (having been battered, filed, etc. thus shortening them) - the photo shows only the front of the lugs.
Photo #5: the punch marks might be hardness test indents, to show whether the part had the proper temper, though that is a large number of tests, if so. Still, parts undergoing Brinnell or Rockwell testing must be rigidly supported, and that is an awkward location, which might have caused difficulty in obtaining a reliable reading.
mhb - Mike
Quote:
"I think we've taken over the original poster's post. My apologies to Marine from Virginia"
Changing a bolt is more than just changing a bolt, the bright side, your curiosity about the gap between the rear receiver ring and third lug may have help you. Then there is that remote chance someone on the outside is reading this thread that could be helped also.
Those with ambition could even think about trying their hand at using a feeler gage, again, reloaders, there are options and additional choices when a reloader becomes a case former.
F. Guffey
chuckindenver
04-26-2013, 09:18
1st 2 pics,.bolt is wasted, has set back. 3rd pic bolt sits right...
dont use the first bolt..should be a slight gap from the safety lug to the receiver. i noticed that the bolt on the left in pic 4 has a chip, i suspect this bolt has suffered a case head failure at some point.
There is a chance the length of the chamber was too short to allow the bolt to close on a minimum length case to. In the absence of a chamber reamer the builder could have altered the front lugs.
When you replace the bolt and know the front lugs are seated check the chamber for length from the shoulder back to the bolt face.
Again, when a bolt will not close on a case the person checking the rifle can determine the (interference) as in how much longer is the case than the chamber. Convencing them is a whole different matter.
F. Guffey
1st 2 pics,.bolt is wasted, has set back. 3rd pic bolt sits right...
dont use the first bolt..should be a slight gap from the safety lug to the receiver. i noticed that the bolt on the left in pic 4 has a chip, i suspect this bolt has suffered a case head failure at some point.
Right Chuck!, I just grabbed it out of the trash for more pictures for mhb. Now it is back in the trash. The fact remains that a "no go" gauge closed on this bolt. The rifle headspaces OK now, even though I'm not too happy with the new bolt.
The photos do not show any obvious gross alteration of the locking lugs of your original bolt. The bolt does show the typical semi-circular deformation of the left hand (slotted) lug caused by impact with the cutoff - this is seen in bolts which have been much used, and cycled with more force than necessary, as in training and/or drill team use. The bolt was very 'experienced', and it's just as well you replaced it.
mhb - Mike
Bucket of 10 bolts: I have boxes of bolts, total number of bolts in boxes and rifles? I have 45+, I do not have an 03 or an 03A3 that will not accept all 45 bolts. Because I determent the length of the chamber in thousandths I do not use head space gages as in go, no and beyond. When changing bolts it is a matter of checking the replacement bolt’s effect it has on head space/the length of the chamber.
Tom, your third lug has clearance, the bolt will not close on a no go-gage, that means your chamber could be .008†longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. Or it could be anything less than .008†longer, that is the reason I am a reloader, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case. I have one military type rifle with a chamber that is .016†longer than a minimum length case, .011†longer than a go-gage length chamber or .007†longer than a no go-gage length chamber, or .002†longer than a field reject length chamber. I off set the length of the chamber by forming cases that an additions .014†added to the length of the case body.
Checking your receiver: I would suggest you attempt to install one of the other bolts, you said the front of the bolt moves through the rear receiver ring with no problem, it is my understanding the bolt has trouble when the third lug starts into the rear receiver ring. I suggest you check the alignment with the top of the rear receiver ring and the third lug on the bolt.
F. Guffey
FG, yes, no other bolts will go through the rear receiver ring without help from large rubber hammer. (I probably just voided the warranty from 1943). I tried 6 bolts from rifles and 10 bolts from spare bolts bucket. They will all interchange with each other, in a different rifle though. New subject, will include pictures of the, obviously, out-of-round rear receiver ring. (As you said, "out of alignment".)
Good-bye to the bolt below!! I have another one that is blued, if I ever get it to fit. I liked the Nickel Steel on the old one, though.
Click Picture
is obviously out-of-round, it has been mashed, squashed, crushed (choose one) in some way, making the opening at the rear too tight a fit on the bolt body, and it sounds like that is the actual problem with your receiver.
A receiver which is out of line has been twisted, bent, sprung (choose one) on its long axis, in which case the bolt passes through the rear opening in the receiver, but is then pointed in some direction which causes it to jam, wedge, bind (choose one) somewhere in its travel forward of that point.
If the out-of-round condition is the problem, and is not severe, it may be possible to relieve the binding at that point and still use the receiver. A bent receiver is not easily repaired.
mhb - Mike
A magnificent rifle, thanks for taking the time.
I have mandrels that are designed to return oval holes back to round, if the rear receiver ring is crushed returning it to round is the easy fix. I would suggest Persian blue layout ink, it is possible the receiver is twisted, the most unlikely suspect’s’ is a twisted bolt, rational, the receiver rejected a bucket of bolts.
I would appreciate it if you would keep me informed, I do not have plans on participating in the next thread.
Unlike the picture you posted of the magnificent rifle I have what was voted the ‘UGLIEST’ rifle ever altered from a military rifle, I could not believe the builder could build the rifle that ugly without knowing what he was doing, anyhow, I won the auction for $120.00 for parts. I took it to the range with 12 different loads of 5 rounds each. There is nothing I could do to improve the accuracy, so I applied the ‘leaver policy’ I left-er the way I founder.
As could be expected when the auction hit the Internet forums etc., etc.. I was concerned about the attention driving the price up, but, no one could get past the ugly part.
F. Guffey
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.