View Full Version : Another Travesty!
I know this is going to drive some collectors up the wall, but here goes...
Last year I glommed a beautiful Persian Mauser that someone had drilled and tapped. I knew it had no collector value, but it was priced accordingly and I was interested in using in the "open" class at a military silhouette match that my sons and I shoot in.
Understand that I couldn't do this to a unmolested mil surp myself. Since someone else had already done the dirty work, I could not restrain myself. I finally used it in a couple of the matches and the Persian did pretty well.
Ever since I found this one, I've wanted an Argentine Mauser in the same condition. Well, today I glommed the Ayotollah's South American cousin at an on-line gun auction...
Hoping that this is as good a shooter as the Persian. Better pics when it arrives.
Nice rifle. I recently saw 7.65 surplus selling in a large volume, but cannot remember where. I know that Samco has cases of 7mm for sale as well as 8mm.
Thanks, Fred.
I reload for these and have gotten good results from IMR 4064. I use 45.0 grains with a 200 gr Nosler Custom Competition in the 8mm and 40.0 grains with a 174 grain SMK in the 7.65.
jon_norstog
03-21-2013, 08:01
What a beautiful rifle someone butchered! Well, the toothpaste is out of the tube on that one.
jn
I'm no fan of D&T'ing a nice surplus rifle, and would never do that myself, but I do have a use for these.
I've attached the match results from last month's vintage military rifle match. If you scroll down to the "open prone" class, you can see the Persian ran with the best of the other military rifles...beating a number of K31's, Swedish Mausers, and M39's, all of which were also scoped. These are the cream of the crop in accuracy in surplus rifles and the Persian bested them. Ultimately I lost in a shoot off with a buddy who was shooting a scout-scoped Swedish M38, but only after each of us shot 10 rounds. And only then, when the match director had us start shooting off hand.
Ultimately both my buddy and I were beaten by a scoped Finnish 28/76 target rifle.
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/Feb2013Match-page-001_zps7465c551.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/Feb2013Match-page-002_zpsb599dee9.jpg
Shooter5
03-21-2013, 09:26
I know this is going to drive some collectors up the wall, but here goes...
Last year I glommed a beautiful Persian Mauser that someone had drilled and tapped. I knew it had no collector value, but it was priced accordingly and I was interested in using in the "open" class at a military silhouette match that my sons and I shoot in.
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/persiansniper.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/persiansniperb.jpg
Understand that I couldn't do this to a unmolested mil surp myself. Since someone else had already done the dirty work, I could not restrain myself. I finally used it in a couple of the matches and the Persian did pretty well.
Ever since I found this one, I've wanted an Argentine Mauser in the same condition. Well, today I glommed the Ayotollah's South American cousin at an on-line gun auction...
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/Argentinesniper_zps8ad1abb3.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/Argentineasniper_zpsa82be883.jpg
Hoping that this is as good a shooter as the Persian. Better pics when it arrives.
Neato, wondering how it will do, have you shot groups with it yet?
PS: I am sure you are aware...when the 1930s contract was negotiated, the Shah of Iran was in power not an ayatollah.
Shooter, I shot some groups during load development.
Found 45.0 and 45.5 grains of IMR 4064 with a 200 grain Nosler CC bullet grouped pretty well, but have had problems with fliers. I intend to refine the load once powder becomes more available.
45.0 grains
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/9f3d8ef7-2b42-4a1c-8040-ee3a63d25270_zps6634f639.jpg
45.5 grains
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/55c3468f-de71-4425-963a-ec28c1492961_zps4ae7285f.jpg
Shooter5
03-23-2013, 06:46
What the...! You don't need any more load development! Those flyers are trigger pull or the like. Take it to a match! What scope/reticle are you using on it?
I've got one of those Bushnell 10x40 Elite 3200 mil-dot scopes on it.
Here it is in fighting trim...
This is one reason why it shoots well
Shooter5
03-24-2013, 07:10
I put the same scope on a Sako Quad. They must have cleaned those rifles immediately after shooting or didn't shoot them much to have such nice bores.
gulliver62
03-30-2013, 05:51
Give the girls new life! You can't undo what has been done but you can make the best of it and at a reduced cost.
The scoped '09 Argentine arrived at my FFL today and I got a chance to look at it before it went into his safe for the 10 day "cooling off" period.
In great condition, very nice bolt turn down and stock cut out for the bolt handle, Bore is sharp and shiny, bluing is excellent. Everything matches down to the cleaning rod.
I hate to say it, but it looks like someone took an "unissued" 09 Argentine and drilled and tapped it.
Better pics when it gets out of jail.
mike webb
04-19-2013, 05:44
I don't know what would possess a man to do that to a practically mint military rifle. There are plenty of butchered rifles around if you have an urge to scope one and take it to the range. The workmanship on these old mausers in absolutely incredible. From a time when highly skilled hands could be had for extremely low wages. A comparable rifle produced today would set you back over $2000 per unit.
I put the same scope on a Sako Quad. They must have cleaned those rifles immediately after shooting or didn't shoot them much to have such nice bores.
I honestly believe that this is one of those unissued Persian Mausers that Samco sold a few years back...it is that nice.
The Argentine Mauser is in about the same condition.
I used the Persian at another match last Saturday...the vintage silhouette match...and scored the highest score out of the 54 shooters (well 44 shooters with 10 shooters shooting 2 rifles). There were 13 shooters in the "open class" (vintage rifles with scopes), including Swiss K31's, Swedish Mausers and 03's and 03A3's, all scoped. The Ayatollah whipped all comers with a score of 38/40
Shooter5
04-24-2013, 04:53
As should be expected; those Czechs know how to build rifles!!
Of course, well trained and practiced with decent ammo to boot also helps!
Take it out to 500 and print it on paper, I am curious to see how well it can group.
Here is a Persian Mauser in Mess-O-potamia: shown in their more common configuration = beat.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r50/joesmith_05/PersianMauser_zps0e9c94be.jpg (http://s141.photobucket.com/user/joesmith_05/media/PersianMauser_zps0e9c94be.jpg.html)
Last weekend I used the Persian again and scored 38/40...which was the top score. In addition to the "as issued" rifles, I was shooting in the "open class", which included Swedish M96's, Swiss K31's and 03A4's...all scoped.
Shooter5
05-02-2013, 07:04
Haha! For the competition, that surely must sting!
Haha! For the competition, that surely must sting!
Yes, especially for the Swedish Mauser shooters. They can be insufferable about the accuracy of their rifles. Swedish Mausers are accurate...but so are the Persians.
I picked up the Argentine and a few others yesterday from my FFL (that damned 10 day "cooling off" period). I'll post additional pictures of it.
I picked up my new Argentine drilled an tapped rifle the other day from my FFL. It is in outstanding condition...both wood and metal and the bore is also outstanding.
Shooter5
05-04-2013, 06:03
That is outstanding, looks brand new!
Shooter5
05-04-2013, 08:26
If you want a nice Persian, OldGuns has one for sale:
http://www.oldguns.net/pix/smof6016.jpg
Thanks, Shooter. That is a nice one. I've got several that I brought back from the dead that were not drilled and tapped.
Shooter5
05-05-2013, 06:49
Those turned out nice. There are another 50,000 in the Middle East you can start on next.
These two started out as the $190 Samco "no blue" Persians. It appears that someone tried to use a strong cleaner on them that removed the bluing and messed up the wood finish wherever it was applied. It also seems to have hardened the cosmoline into something resembling cured asphalt. I bought three of them and still have one of them that needs "the treatment"
This was typical of the three that I got
I also recently glommed this Persian Mauser.
It isn't easy to tell exactly what condition this Mauser is in. It looks to have a fair amount of cosmoline. It is supposed to arrive at my FFL this week. Better pics when it does.
Main reason I bought it...$230 shipped. Almost any 98/29 is worth that, IMHO
Shooter5
05-06-2013, 03:15
That is an interesting conclusion regarding the chemical stripper: many of the old rifles in Southwest Asia have the blueing stripped off including AKs. I have assumed simple steel wool was used. The reason for this is because folks in that region seem to prefer shiny guns - not blued - and a cheap and simple way to do that without plating (which is done sometimes) would be to scrub the blueing away. Maybe they used chemicals?! Most (if not all) of the Persian Mauser's seen overseas were 'shiny' (ie, blueing was stripped away) and were all well used as shooters. Conversely, the US imports mostly appear intact.
In addition, Mauser type rifles, or, Brno's as they would often be referred to (Ber-know), were still sought and used for various reasons such as presentations or hunting. The model's most preferred were the short carbines, if they could be found, or the other styles like a Vz24 length. The full-length 'musket' rifles were least preferred but acceptable if nothing else.
Looking at the damaged bluing and stock finish, it looks like a chemical stripper, possibly chlorinated, was used. There did not appear to be any scratching or abrasive markings on the metal. And the damage to the stock finish looks like it was chemically caused.
I have an M49 that was lightly sporterized. The only change made was to fill in the sling cut out in the butt. Everything else looks original. I believe it was one of the short carbines made in Iran. It is an easy handling rifle and not a bad shooter, but man is it loud. 8x57 + 18" barrel = lots of decibels.
Shooter5
05-07-2013, 06:44
I've been looking for a Model 49. They are hard to find. How does your's shoot? (More kick and muzzle blast!) But how is the accuracy and grouping compared to the full length rifle?
It shoots decently. Probably not as well as the 98/29...but I can't quantify the difference.
I finally got a scope mounted on my Argentine Mauser. I ended up needing some higher rings for the scope that I mounted.
I'm hoping to get to the range next week and shoot it.
And here are both the Persian and Argentine in match shooting trim...
If the Argentine shoots well, I 'm considering converting the Argentine to a CMP vintage sniper match-legal trim by replacing the scope mounts with reproduction turret mounts and the Bushnell scope with a Weaver K4. That particular rifle is not listed specifically in the rules, but it would seem to meet the criteria for inclusion in the match. The Weaver K4 scope seems to be the overall match legal replacement scope for the Zeiss scope used on many Mauser sniper rifles.
Here is a pic of the original '09 Argentine sniper rifle, first introduced in the late 1920's.
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/South%20American%20Mausers/d7c2993e-1859-40fb-8162-22f43f1d677d_zps0f84551c.jpg
The Persian would be a little trickier to use in the CMP match. As far as I know, the Iranians never had a sniper version of the 98/29. However, the 98/29 is very similar to the GEW 98 and I'm wondering if it could run as a GEW 98 with the proper repro scope mount and a Weaver K4.
Alternatively, the vintage sniper rules refer to a "7.92mm VZ 24, 24†or 30†barrels" rifle under the "Yugoslavian and Czechoslavakia" heading. The only Czech Mauser rifles I'm familiar with that have a 30" barrels are the 98/22 and the Persian 98/29. I've posted on the CMP forum as to whether anyone over there is familiar with either of these rifles competing in the CMP vintage sniper match and am awaiting any replies.
Anyone familiar with either of these rifles being used in the CMP vintage sniper matches, with appropriate glass, of course?
Shooter5
05-29-2013, 08:06
That is a good question: did Iran put any scopes on their 98/29s? I wonder what the Mauser reference books say?
Have you done any trigger work on either of those rifles?
I've checked Ball's MMRotW and can find no information that Iran ever scoped any of their Mausers, although it is possible.
No trigger work on either rifle. The Persian has a "draggy" first stage, but grisp second stage. The prior owner of the Argentine put a trigger shoe on it, and the first and second stage are fantastic. It is possible he worked the trigger over.
I got to the range for a quick session. I got a chance to fire a few of my rifles, including the scoped Argentine. I didn't have any time to reload for the 7.65 x 53, so I shot 5 Prvi Partizan 174 gr's and 5 Norma 150 gr's at 100 yards off a sandbag front rest. The Argentine liked the Normas pretty well...
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/Targets/a4c65acd-0268-4b38-92a8-d75218656d80_zps2bd9ef71.jpg
Was so-so with the Prvi...
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/Targets/03cf2469-8b0c-400a-bdfc-99660efbb627_zps226507da.jpg
I think I can do better with some reloads.
I also brought the Persian Mauser and had 4 leftover reloads from the last match. Also at 100 yards...
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/Targets/11bee4c4-f7b6-44f4-b810-db10b5e794cf_zpsdcdf65de.jpg
I think that the Argentine, with a good load, will keep up with the Persian
Shooter5
06-02-2013, 07:55
I've checked Ball's MMRotW and can find no information that Iran ever scoped any of their Mausers, although it is possible.
No trigger work on either rifle. The Persian has a "draggy" first stage, but grisp second stage. The prior owner of the Argentine put a trigger shoe on it, and the first and second stage are fantastic. It is possible he worked the trigger over.
I checked my 4th ed as well and couldn't find any mention of it. Pre-2003 time frame, Scopes in that region were rare; never saw any on the old rifles. The Warsaw Pact scopes for the SVD were the only others scene. Since then, lots of Chinese optics have flooded the market but still haven't seen any on the old bolt actions, only modern rifles like a Steyr, etc.
One issue I have with the reference in Ball is the sentence structure on page 276 for the Model 49.
"Manufactured by the Iranians in the state rifle factory set up by the Czechs in Mosalsalsasi,..."
This sentence seems to imply "Mosalsalsasi" is a city but it is not: that word means 'machine-gun factory' and it is in downtown Tehran.
I got to the range today and shot a few handloads through the scoped Argy...
174 gr .311 SMK's @ 100 yards...5 rounds with varying loads of 4320
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/8be30f93-2509-4822-b796-8f19b207de50_zps45d860ce.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/907de929-2214-40a9-8dda-b562c1dd872e_zpse7b7ae70.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/7c1c6ef4-a882-48e6-b891-16132cc2ecad_zpsf54cee88.jpg
It looks like this one will keep up with the Persian.
Shooter5
06-06-2013, 02:37
The key to winning is grouping and since you can group no wonder you clean up! :icon_lol:
It helps when your rifle/ammo assist. Real good for arms made in another era.
The Argentine definitely liked the 43.5 gr load of IMR 4320.
I think the loads in many reloading manuals for the Mauser cartridges are conservative because of the many different actions (small ring, large ring, GEW 88) that the Mauser cartridges are chambered in. With the '09 Argentine and the 98/29 Persian, I feel comfortable pushing the upper limits because of the strength of the large ring actions.
Shooter5
06-07-2013, 03:06
The literature seems to indicate both small and large ring are extremely strong. The 8mm can be loaded quite potent but the US market dials it down a lot.
You are right, th eUS commercial 8x57 loads are wimpy.
My reloads are quite a bit hotter than US commercial and I get no signs of pressure with either the Argentine or the Persian load.
I shot the Argentine at the vintage military rifle silhouette match for the first time last Saturday. It did OK--31/40. I need to shoot it a little more and possibly refine the load.
Shooter5
06-18-2013, 05:01
You're going to have to open up another thread with a different title; there is no travesty associated with the way these rifles are shooting!
Here are the results of the match last weekend. There was some pretty good shooting going on there. I was shooting my new scoped Argentine 1909 for the first time in the match and scored a 31. I believe the old girl can do better with a little more practice.
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/June2013MilSilMatchresults_zps085efab7.jpg
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/June2013P2_MilSilMatch_zps7da21cd2.jpg
The Swiss did respectably, but were bested by the Swedish Mauser shooters. I believe that this is due, at least in part, to sights that are allowed on the Swedish Mauser in the match that were not actually "as issued" sights.
Shooter5
06-23-2013, 04:15
David Tubb used to sell a drill bit attachment for cartridge uniformity. I didn't see it on his website; friends who used it say their group patterns tightened up a fair amount.
When you say cartridge uniformity...did it smooth out the bullet tip?
Shooter5
06-24-2013, 04:32
It was a concentricity (spelling?)/uniformity tool for the tip, IIRC. It didn't necessarily make the bullet more accurate so much as it made all the cartridges the same thus making the groups MPI more 'average'.
I'll look into that tool. Thanks, Shooter.
http://s688.photobucket.com/user/fguffey/slideshow/
F. Guffey
Thanks Guff...that is a pretty impressive collection of reloading tools.
Continuing to refine a load for this rifle. Made a quick trip to the range yesterday to do some test firing...this was my best load.
@100 yards, about 1".
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/db62bda5-a2f3-434a-97a4-72c5587098d1_zpsc4c86468.jpg http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/e488cf43-4288-4bb4-8877-ef0f96b66b8f_zpsbbcefe86.jpg
Calfed, thank you, somewhere in that group is a picture of a 1943 Mauser action that is in the process of being welded back together, no travesty, had the receiver been in one piece I would have never had the opportunity. The original intent of the smith that cut/shortened it had a plan, he wanted a short action, there was nothing suspect about his abilities, he just ran out of time.
F. Guffey
Shooter5
10-13-2013, 06:36
Calfed:
Current issue has an decent article about the Persian Mausers. One glaring mistake: by using Ball as a reference, Scarlata does imply the rifles manufactured in Iran were made at a town called "Mosalsalsazi" but which is, in fact, not a city. Instead, that word translates to 'machine-gun factory'. All rifles mfg' in Iran were made in downtown Tehran at the 'machine-gun factory' which was set up with the assistance of the Czechs.
http://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/persian-mauser/
Shooter, I shot some groups during load development.
Found 45.0 and 45.5 grains of IMR 4064 with a 200 grain Nosler CC bullet grouped pretty well, but have had problems with fliers. I intend to refine the load once powder becomes more available.
45.0 grains
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/9f3d8ef7-2b42-4a1c-8040-ee3a63d25270_zps6634f639.jpg
45.5 grains
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/targets/55c3468f-de71-4425-963a-ec28c1492961_zps4ae7285f.jpg
want to sell me some of those "flyers"
great groups and i agree those just happen, not the load, think your done
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/GEW1916Mauser.jpg
rifles like the one you found do have one thing in common, might be hard to swallow, but still it is there. Years ago i found a GEW98 action, had trigger guard and bolt but that was it, so wth, decided to make a legacy gun for grandson. my deal with him was he got the rifle when he did something above and beyond, finishing high school DID NOT MEET THE CRITERIA, HE WAS EXPECTED TO FINISH HIGH SCHOOL. Not with standing appointed to National Honor Society would do it, a college scholarship he worked for would do it, graduate from Marine Corps boot camp with a stripe would qualify, any boot camp with a stripe would qualify. but just being a good average kid, would not by itself qualify for this rifle
CUSTOM WALNUT STOCK WITH BRAZILIAN HEART WOOD SPACER AND BIRDSEYEMAPLE FOREND
GLASS BEDDED
SATIN FINISH BLUED STEEL
GENTRY 3 POSITION SAFETY REPLACED MAUSER SAFETY
SCHILLEN 3006 BARREL, WITH ALL APPROPRIATE WORK DONE FOR ACCURACY
TIMNEY TRIGGER
WEAVER 6 POWER (FIFTY YEAR OLD REDONE SCOPE), WEAVER STEEL BASES
SHOOTS SUBMINUTE GROUP AT 100 YARDS
Now I did most of the work, not barrel or working on chamber that was done elsewhere, but all woodwork and bedding done by me. and damn if this thing dont shoot.
i built this thing ten year ago and my oldest grandson has yet to do anything but hang around, does he want it?*** you bet**
but he knows grand pas deal, if he does not get it by work it goes to the North Carolina Junior Rifle team for auction for funds
or to a un named other grandchild, have three more grandkids
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/mauser.jpg
Pelago, for some reason I no longer receive notices when my posts have received answers, so I'm just seeing your post above.
That is a fine-looking, fine-shooting rifle. Congrats on a nice job and I hope you grandson wises up and earns the rights to it.
Steve
Pelago, for some reason I no longer receive notices when my posts have received answers, so I'm just seeing your post above.
That is a fine-looking, fine-shooting rifle. Congrats on a nice job and I hope you grandson wises up and earns the rights to it.
Steve
thanks for the kind words, unfortunately the grandson that i had hoped would earn it, has just not done much of anything. seems content to be nothing, maybe some day he will wake up, but there are others, and my current legacy project will be
Mauser 98 small ring action (1915 Erfure armory)
6.5X55
gentry three position safety
shilen barrel, moderate wt, will not be a feather weight, but a good sit on stand gun
custom stock
timney trigger
an older weaver scope, have many to chose from might be a 6power wide angle have couple to chose from
the action seems to marry up with this caliber well
and if none of my grandsons or granddaughters accomplish something that is above board
I probably will donate all the lagacy rifles to the NC Juniors to raffle off
thanks for the kind words, unfortunately the grandson that i had hoped would earn it, has just not done much of anything. seems content to be nothing, maybe some day he will wake up, but there are others, and my current legacy project will be
Mauser 98 small ring action (1915 Erfure armory)
6.5X55
gentry three position safety
shilen barrel, moderate wt, will not be a feather weight, but a good sit on stand gun
custom stock
timney trigger
an older weaver scope, have many to chose from might be a 6power wide angle have couple to chose from
the action seems to marry up with this caliber well
and if none of my grandsons or granddaughters accomplish something that is above board
I probably will donate all the lagacy rifles to the NC Juniors to raffle off
Sounds like a great project.
Please post pics of it when it is completed
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