German made double rifle info

[GBEAR1]

I know this is not a mauser but I thought someone here could help me out with info on a German made hammerless double rifle. It was made and stamped by a gunmaker named Max G. Fischer from Berlin. A regular 8x 57 round fits nicely into the chamber but can not be extracted because it requires a rim on the casing for the extractor to grip. I have to pry it out with my finger nail. The bore appears to be .318 diameter. It is set up for claw mounts but the mounts and rings are not with it any more. Anyone have any info or know where I can find info on the maker and the correct ammo? The caliber is not marked anywhere on the rifle. The rifle is definitely pre ww2 and maybe pre ww1. Good looking sleek little rifle.

[randy langford]

I would do a chamber casting that will give you a good idea of what you have. Then slug the bore. to get the true land and groove dimensions. Hope this helps.

[da gimp]

8X57 JR rimmed is my guess, I have a drilling with the 2 rifle barrels chambered in that. MIDWAY USA has those brass in stock, a standard set of 8X57 RCBS 3 die reloading dies will work, need new case head holder for your press though....... start with loads on the low side & gently work up.......... until you find where the barrels hit on the same place........

[kcw]

I know this is not a mauser but I thought someone here could help me out with info on a German made hammerless double rifle. It was made and stamped by a gunmaker named Max G. Fischer from Berlin. A regular 8x 57 round fits nicely into the chamber but can not be extracted because it requires a rim on the casing for the extractor to grip. I have to pry it out with my finger nail. The bore appears to be .318 diameter. It is set up for claw mounts but the mounts and rings are not with it any more. Anyone have any info or know where I can find info on the maker and the correct ammo? The caliber is not marked anywhere on the rifle. The rifle is definitely pre ww2 and maybe pre ww1. Good looking sleek little rifle.

If you discribe the proof marks and other stampings (commonly found on the underside of the barrel) we may be able to give you more info. There's a good chance that the gun was a "liberated" by a U.S. soldier at the end of WWII and brought home. There was a rimmed round very simliar to the 8x57. but you probably can't be certain of what you have until you have a "Cerro-Safe" (I believe that's the name of the product) cast done of the chambers. Fisher was likely a "guild" shop maker , typically smaller sized gun smithing operations which bought commercially made receivers and then built the rest of the gun to the customer's specifications. "Guild" guns will be found both with, and without, a "maker's mark". An 8mm bore, depending in it's exact bore dimension, would be stamped something on the order of 8.13, or there abouts.

[da gimp]

the very, very early 8mm's bores ran to .318 (both 8X57 & 8X57R)..........Try a 8X57 Rimmed in it...........the advice of cerro-safe is good tho......... Midway has it in stock.... directions come with it...........,after making sure it is empty, take off the forearm, put the safety on, & break it open............. this will seperate the barrels from the receiver....... on the flats of the receiver & barrels will be a series of proofs.........is there a Crown over a capital N ?a weird eagle, (unlike waffenamt eagles)?

added pix would be extremely helpful...........

.........

[GBEAR1]

Yo gimp. I will check it later this eve after work and get back with some info. Thanks

[GBEAR1]

Sorry I dont know how to post photos here. But here is what I found. Underside of barrels under chambers marked Crown over G 17228 . Crown over the eagle over U under each chamber, also this marking on receiver. Krupp marked under each barrel . 107922 marking . Also there is a shield over M.G.F. marking. There is a lot of engraving on the receiver and other small parts . Buffalo horn trigger guard and butt plate. Checkered stock and forearm . Small sling swivals . It looks to be of better quality than the typical guild guns I have seen. I guess the trick is to find out all about the maker who is MAX G. FISCHER. I dont know that I will ever shoot it. Any more info you have is appreciated. Thanks for all your help.

[Tuna]

There are at least nine different 8mm rimmed cartridges that were used in Germany over the years so a chamber cast is mandatory just to be on the safe side as some are longer then the 8x57.

[kcw]

Crown/G /17228= " Supplementary mark for barrels firing solid projectiles" & "172.28 gauge". The proof law of 1891 required that bore diameters be indicated by "gauge", like a shotgun, NOT in millimeters. In your case the bore diameter is = to the diameter of a lead ball, the size of which would require 172.28 of them to make a pound. According to my info a 172.28 lead ball would = a bore diameter of 7.62mm. I don't find a Crown/eagle/U, but I do find an eagle/crown/U mark which = Definative proof of above. I gather that mark would appear below another stamp. I'm guessing that the 107922 marking may be a Krupp Steel Co. heat/lot indication.
The proof law of 1891 evolved with time through its end in 1939. As time went along older markings were obsoleted as newer government requirements were put in place. It was common however that proof houses often retained the use of older proof methods/stamps while still using the newer methods as required under law, thus both older and newer stamping might appear. Always however, the newest required stamp would be used,even if the obsolete one wasn't. This helps to date the time of proofing. We know that in 1911 the CONFUSING gauge method was dropped in favor of a mm (caliber) designation. As your gun has no mm stamping we can thus conclude that it was made before 1911. My info source is the 1975 issue of Gun Digest, History of Proof Marks/Proof Marks in Germany, by Lee Kennett
'

[kcw]

In doing a bit more research I believe that I've tracked the birthdate of your rifle down a little more. Due to confusion related to the use of a number of differant nitro powders being used for proofing the 1888 Commission rifle and its various commercial derivatives, the German government issued "the decree of 1893" which required that nitro proofed rifles be proofed with a standardized government spec "4,000 atmosphere" nitro powder, and that the proof load be stamped on the gun. Additionally, a nitro proof mark, consisting of two Imperial crowns, the 2nd of which was over the letter N, was required. As you've not reported these marks as being on your double rifle it can be assumed that your rifle was made in the time frame of 1891-1893. During that period the standard "service load" for a 172.28 gauge rifle would have been 1.8 grams of nitro powder behind a 12.1 gram projectile. The conversion of that bullet weight to grains may give you some indication as to the bullet weight used during the "regulation" of your rifle barrels (assuming it wasn't custom regulated to the customer's specific orders). The unfortunate fact about double rifles is that they were regulated for one load only, if your load varies much from whatever the original combination was, the barrels won't cross properly with the original iron sights.

[GBEAR1]

Thanks for your research. Very Interesting. I must admit that I am surprised the rifle dates back that far. I think I had mentioned that this rifle is set up for scope claw mounts. Were claw mounted scopes in use during the 1891 to 1893 time frame?

[kcw]

Thanks for your research. Very Interesting. I must admit that I am surprised the rifle dates back that far. I think I had mentioned that this rifle is set up for scope claw mounts. Were claw mounted scopes in use during the 1891 to 1893 time frame?

Yes, they were around at that time and before. Typically a rifle such as yours would have been originally set up with iron sights, commonly with a three leaf rear "express" leaf sight placed in a dovetailed rib on the barrel. Often the leaf sight was removed from the rib and the front claw scope mount inserted in its place on break action rifles when scopes were added. Generally the front sight remained. Does your rifle still have the front iron sight, or show evidence that it did have one?

[GBEAR1]

Yes it has a standard non express rear sight dovetailed into the rib. I am not familiar with the claw mount set up so the one on this rifle seems strange to me. There are 3 mounting points . The rear one has 2 spring loaded knurled bars that move rearward to allow the claw into the slots. The next or center one has 2 slots in it and is center dove tailed into the rib. The forward most one has two slots and is dove tailed into rib only it is off set to the left approx half an inch. Ahead of that is the rear sight dove tailed into the rib.

[kcw]

Yes it has a standard non express rear sight dovetailed into the rib. I am not familiar with the claw mount set up so the one on this rifle seems strange to me. There are 3 mounting points . The rear one has 2 spring loaded knurled bars that move rearward to allow the claw into the slots. The next or center one has 2 slots in it and is center dove tailed into the rib. The forward most one has two slots and is dove tailed into rib only it is off set to the left approx half an inch. Ahead of that is the rear sight dove tailed into the rib.

The typical setup I've seen would be the spring loaded rear base with TWO slots ; and a forward base, also with two slots but no spring. The scope (with rings/claws attached) was tipped downward so as to engage the forward claws into the front mount slots, and then the claws on the rear where lowered into the rear base; the spring pressure in that base FIRMLY affixing both sets of claws into their bases. I don't know why there would be two forward style bases installed on y our gun UNLESS the idea was that it was setup in that fashion to also allow the use of a longer scope , which might well require a longer distance between the rear and forward bases. I'm guessing that the most forward base on your rifle simply needs to be properly recentered in its dovetail. FYI, I did a bit of research into Max Fischer. It seems that his shop was a substantial producer of double barreled arms, including pistols, as far back as the 1870's. Apparently the place was in operating up until WWII, when it was bombed out of existance. I highly doubt that it was a specific target for the 8th Air Force, rather it just happened to be in the wrong place (Berlin) at the wrong time.
I don't know how standardized the specs on those scope bases were, and I've never measured them. It may be that they were like Weaver base specs, regardless of who made them, with the top side being of standard demensions and the bottoms custom fit to a particular model gun? From the examples I've seen the claws did require some fitting (filing) to get them to fit properly. FYI, You can still buy those German style claw/ring setups as new. You can get modern 1" rings with them. Unfortunately they don't seem to come cheap (about $250 last I knew). A few years ago I was able to purchase a shim/bushing pac which allowed me to install a 1" scope into WWI era rings that were about 34mm on a guild 98 sporter Mauser "bringback". The rear lense in the orignal scope (WWI German military marked surplus) was cracked.

NOTE: If you do a search for "German Claw Mounts" on E-bay there are several examples of both the forward and rear bases which I've referred to.

[GBEAR1]

You are the MAN. You know I have never owned one of these untill now. I would often admire them at gun shows but because of my lack of knowledge and the sometimes hefty price tags I never went deeper. Even though this is only a medium bore rifle and may of never been used in Africa or India it was around during the colonial period when the great white hunters had their hay day. I must admitt that this rifle is growing on me and that I may even load for it. I do not know how to post photos on this site but with your permission I would like to send you some photos. I may also take it to the Baltimore show comming soon . There are people from all over the world there that may possibly give additional input.

[Tuna]

I can almost see a well to do German hunter stalking a stag in the Black forest with your rifle.

[older than dirt]

We really need pics of your rifle. See if you can find a familly member or friend to post them for you.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

It may be obvious, and maybe I missed other posters commenting before, but you may have a rifle that is intended for a .318 inch round when more modern loads would use a .323 round.

One of the posters on this board [-- having a brain blank -- can't remember who] commented in great detail about the dangers of firing the larger round. So a chamber cast is essential, and could save your life or eyesight.

[GBEAR1]

Yes thankyou. I believe it does use the .318 bullet.

[kcw]

Yes thankyou. I believe it does use the .318 bullet.


If 172.28 gauge = a .308 bore; and you add .005 deep grooves around it you get..... .318