View Full Version : what does provenance have to do with value of a weapon?
just so happens by luck of the draw i have a erfurt armory 98 , and this particular rifle is listed in one of the premier reference books, by serial number and listed "in a private collection" i got it just by luck, saw it a dealer saw that it was probably miss listed, that is the rifle is a 98 but not a k98, so i bought it and researched it and lo and behold there it is in the book
funny how the Germans put serial numbers on just about everything that could take them probably the only thing that does not have serial numbers are the screws and actual sling attachment points, every thing else has them, bands, sights, butt plate, all the safety shrourds and so forth
Some folks attach great value to provenance.Depends on the gun,if you have a pistol with a chain of proven provenance to a famous individual it makes it worth a lot more.Firearms owned by famous collectors sometimes bring more,sometimes not,depends on how famous.Firearms listed as being in a reference book might or might not bring more,I've seem them before,they're not common but not rare either.Condition would still determine value.
Does it have any unit markings on it?
no, just a curiosity item very clean no pitting, good bore KAR 98 (a) from erfurt armory ser 7141, listed in the mauser book stock is very good, but some of the german stocks were quite good looking
Another area that provenance would play a part in IMHO is in determining "origional" vs. "correct" If a firearm had been issued to Uncle Joe in WWI and stayed in the family until his son's death and I bought it, I would be more inclined to consider it origional and place a higher value on it than one that had all the "correct" parts but looked to be just that. A mixmaster of the right parts.
Thaine
Matching numbers does not equal provenance. Provenance is established when the gun (or other item) can be traced to a specific military unit or individual through some solid documentation. If all the numbers match so much the better. However since the US was an early master of interchangeable parts US weapons usually only have an s/n on one or two key parts.
Regards,
Jim
If a rifle appears in a book or article you would need those items to go with the gun, otherwise its just a story.
if a individual owns a weapon that is specifically mentioned in "MAUSER MILITARY RIFLES OF THE WORLD" and is listed by serial number, is that provenance or just co incidence? maybe kinda neat, but not sure how that would add to or for that fact subtract value, would think that value would be established more by condition, than provenance. Now if someone owned a Colt that was supposedly owned by John Wesley Hardin and could prove it with either documentation or photo or both, that would establish quite a bit of provenance
just curious
What would you consider this buttplate: markings are Troop H 8th Cavalry trooper #18
1st Lt Geo Patton was in Troop H in 1916 during the Mexican Punitive Expedition
Stock is an early modified stock with a single cross bolt159471594815949
if a individual owns a weapon that is specifically mentioned in "MAUSER MILITARY RIFLES OF THE WORLD" and is listed by serial number, is that provenance or just co incidence? maybe kinda neat, but not sure how that would add to or for that fact subtract value, would think that value would be established more by condition, than provenance. Now if someone owned a Colt that was supposedly owned by John Wesley Hardin and could prove it with either documentation or photo or both, that would establish quite a bit of provenance
just curious
Your rifle is listed as being in one of the 'premier referance books', so you have 'provenance' to that reference book. How much is that worth? That depends on the individual I think. Your reference to John Harden ---now that type provenence has proven to be worth allot, but if it was Joe Blow, who nobody knows anything about, then what? I have an 1896 Krag carbine with provenence to 1st., Cav.Co H, 1899 at a Fort in ND. Been told that is worth an extra 100-150 bucks. (1st Cav. Co H. shipped to Phillipines couple months later.)
How much is that worth?
well said, and reality is reality, when i bought the rifle had no idea of anything other than i felt it was mismarked at the dealer, and i only paid 200.00 for it, and when got home found the reference i mentioned
just thought it was cool and the page listed the rifle as being in a private collection and i wonder how it got to the dealers rack??
curious
Pelago, maybe I'm wrong,but I wuld attach no value to it being cited in a book sans vvg paperwork attributing it to a noted German soldier.
Also, nearly all German WWII manufacturers started at serial #1 thru 9999, then started all over again with an A suffix, repeated with B & so on. We had a cherry 1916 DWM P08, that was 3 digit with an A suffix, but understood their serial #'ing.
Walther on their PP's & PPK models didn't repeat the series, started PP serial #'s at 750,000 then ran a little past 1,000,000 then started again at serial # 100,000 to end of WWII production, but the P38 did 1-9999 etc
200 dollars??? You got a excellent buy! "You don't need no stinkin provenence!"
i thought so, bore is bright and shiney, and all serial numbers match (must have driven the germans bat **** to serialize everything but the screws)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/mausercollection.jpg
the erfurt mauser is on top
another nice one is one that someone sportered up the stock 2nd from bottom, metal is pristine and bore looks unfired, probably not, but looks that way, too bad the stock got gorped up by some hunter, and i think this is a bring back, no import marks of any kind and is in great shape and is a shooter
dern nice & ya done great too.Always buy the gun & not the story & this you did & well too.
probably could take the 2nd from bottom and put it back into military dress, with right stock and so forth, i beleive that this was a bring back, dont know how many came back but heard it was not uncommon for GI's to bring back souvenirs, hell i did
most "souveniers"were bought cheap after WWII when the market was flooded with great weapons & the story changed from when Dad/Grandpa fought, it was against ones like this one, to being this is the one dad/grandpa brought back. But a bunch were also brought back, if you can find a nice stock set, buy it...... if it's not reblued...
i dont think it was reblued, it is a 1939 98, metal is superb, and is quite even can see a trace of outline where the old stock covered metal, someone took the stock and cut if off and did a circa 1955 sporter job on it, no holes for scope mounts though , and even some of the serial numbers match, trigger guard and cover are the same as rifle, bolt is also same, if i am patient and do it right can probably come up with a good stock, or maybe buy a screwed up 98 metal wise and convert it to a hunter for grandsons and swap out. as far as 98's go this one would be a keeper, and i have several grandchildren left to build rifles for, but it is a shooter now, holds sub minute on rest at 100, with std 8 mm ammo,
too bad the stock was cut down because it is a handsome piece of wood
Johnny P
04-27-2012, 06:40
Having a weapon that is pictured in a reference book is always nice, but unless the weapon had provenance prior to it being in the book it still has no provenance. The private collector apparently didn't place much value on the weapon and must have sold it rather cheaply.
you are probably correct, just kinda funny/neat that reading about a particular type of rifle and lo and behold you see the serial number of a rifle you bought five years earlier...
maybe provenance was and is the wrong word
anyway was and is kinda cool and a nice rifle since i paid next to nothing for it, that same day i bought a semi converted K98 ad KAR98a and a M1 carbine all for less than 450.00 us dollars
all from same guy. other than they were sitting on ablanket covered table and were cheap, that is all i know, could have been estate deal, whatever
sounds like ya did great, as long as you got a driver's license verified bill of sale.............with models & serial #'s on it for each.......
Prez1981
06-27-2012, 03:23
Had a similar situation with a Reising Model 60...purchased it for a decent price and thought the serial number was odd. Turns out the original late-1942 sales invoice for the rifle is published in the Reising book. No idea what value it adds to the rifle, but it makes it a bit more interesting.
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