View Full Version : what would you shoot?
Entry Level
05-10-2011, 04:20
If the choice was a 1903 A4[some variation with wood and receiver] under a weaver 2.5x scope, minimum 2.5 trigger pull or a Garand under an 8x Unertl with a 5 lb trigger pull which would you choose? The range will be 300 and 600 yards 10 rounds each. This is also a timed match.And no you can't put the Unertl on the A4. These are approved combos for the August Vintage Sniper shoot. Thanks Jon B.
Badgerord
05-10-2011, 05:02
The Unertl is a bad idea, the scope must be reset after the recoil of each shot, not to mention how the heck would you put a Unertl on a Garand??? there is no correct mount.
YES..YES...YES... you can put the return spring on the scope, but they don't always work 100% and you end up checking the scope after each shot any way.
Marty
Badger Ordnance
Why would they allow a Unertl scope on an M1??? I thought these matches were supposed to be for rifles actually issued or their clones.
Entry Level
05-10-2011, 06:11
You are correct, mentioning the Unertl on the Garand was not appropriate. The Unertl could be used on a 1941 Springfield. Since I don't have access to a "41 the Question should be " How does the Garand with an M81-M82-M84 Weaver compare in accuracy to the 1903 A4 Springfield"? This is a 2.5x scope.
Johnny in Texas
05-10-2011, 06:44
I will take the A4 every time. I have fired them all at 600 and 300 and the A4 is the most comfortable I have even tried it with an M1 w/USMC 4X Kollmorgen and the A4 is the most forgiving. The USMC 8X '03 is a real treat to shoot at 600
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
05-10-2011, 07:10
I hate the A4 scope, but it works and they are accurate. I would pick the A4.
jt
Johnny in Texas
05-10-2011, 07:35
I would choose a crosshair reticule over a post also.
not sure where you obtained your information, however the use of a unertl on a m1 will not be allowed, it did not happen in history, this combination did not exist
i would use one of these
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/1903A4replica002.jpg
200 yard results
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/1903A4replica001.jpg
to build one of these will cost about a grand plus or minus, however i WOULD NOT USE A GIBBS SCOPE
saw too many of them fail at Eastern Games, and listened to Gibbs try to explain that they were never intended to be used over 100 yards, however you dont see that claim in his ads. he is supposed to be fixing this.. try to find the real deal a alaskan lyman they are out there
Griff Murphey
05-21-2011, 07:41
What kills me was my friend Col. Dickman was always trying to get me to buy his USMC sniper 03 with Unertl all through the 80's whenever I'd stay with them for a shoot at Camp Bullis or a dental meeting in SA. I'm sure he would have taken a few hundred dollars for it. Who cared about 03's with scopes on them in the 80's?? By the time I realized it might be something I wanted he had sold it, in the late 90's, to a Marine team shooter, AFAIK. Too late.
John Sukey
05-21-2011, 09:13
One of my No4Mk1T's since that's all I have;)
One of my No4Mk1T's since that's all I have;)
sure would like to see it
regards
Bill Browning
07-03-2011, 07:44
The bolt gun for sure
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-03-2011, 08:30
If that Unertl is for an 03, use that. If the spring is allowed, use it. I have never had one fail to return to battery on a high power rifle. If springs are not allowed, pulling the scope into battery is quick and easily done (my sniper has no spring). You will get used to it with practice. Operate the bolt, then pull the scope into battery. Mine is deadly accurate.
jt
Greg Ficklin
07-03-2011, 09:37
I used my Tribute USMC 1941 at the Eastern Games, and will again at Perry. The best choice would be the 03 over the Garand because of less things that can go wrong. Loose gas plug comes to mind, or a bent op rod could wreck your day. But there is no reason why an exceptional M1 couldn't do as well, but most would not.
The rule of not using the recoil spring stems from the fact that the USMC removed them from their Unertls. Pulling the scope back is what they did, so it's what we have to do.
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-03-2011, 10:48
...stems from the fact that the USMC removed them from their Unertls. Pulling the scope back is what they did, so it's what we have to do.
The Marines didn't remove the springs, they ordered them without the springs, and for a reason.
jt
PhillipM
10-10-2011, 08:50
The Marines didn't remove the springs, they ordered them without the springs, and for a reason.
jt
What was the reason?
snakehunter
10-11-2011, 08:25
The '03
Jim in Salt Lake
10-11-2011, 08:34
I have a high number Springfield 1903 I bought for these matches. Its receiver is drilled on the side for a side mounted Weaver 330 (no "C" or click adjustments). The scope is clear but the elevation and windage adjustments affect each other! What an absolute pain to sight in!! I've got mine sighted at 300 yards and will find my 600 yard zero at our match this weekend. I don't plan to make any elevation or windage adjustments, will use Kentucky windage/elevation as any movement of either sight adjustment totally screws up your zero. As soon as I find a decent deal on a used Unertl, Feckler, or Lyman that fits in the CMP rules, or Leatherwood finally comes out with their Unertl clone (ain't holdin' my breath), I'm changing out that Weaver. Maybe it needs some rebuilding/TLC, I would like to keep it, but I can really see why early target scope users stayed with external adjustments. So, to answer the poster's original question, no way would I pick a 1903 or 03A3 with a Weaver.
George in NH
10-11-2011, 09:22
Hi Gang,
I am in the early stage of building up a '03A4 for the 2012 Vintage Sniper Match at Camp Perry.
I traded for a "basket case" M73B1 and sent if off to Iron Sight for rebuild. They advise of a ten month back log (they have 1200 scopes in house already!). Anyway, I have a 03A3 that has numerous holes in the receiver from previous scope/sight mounts so I will not be altering a collectable rifle. Anyone know how to shim the rear of the Redfield Junior mount to gain more elevation? Based on the fine info here, I intend to ignore the short lines and zero at 300, hopefully making the "come ups" more fool proof for 600. I have several issue style "S" stocks w/handguard in fiberglass. I wonder if I could use that set up? Thanks to all, George in NH
PhillipM
10-11-2011, 09:37
I have a high number Springfield 1903 I bought for these matches. Its receiver is drilled on the side for a side mounted Weaver 330 (no "C" or click adjustments). The scope is clear but the elevation and windage adjustments affect each other! What an absolute pain to sight in!! I've got mine sighted at 300 yards and will find my 600 yard zero at our match this weekend. I don't plan to make any elevation or windage adjustments, will use Kentucky windage/elevation as any movement of either sight adjustment totally screws up your zero. As soon as I find a decent deal on a used Unertl, Feckler, or Lyman that fits in the CMP rules, or Leatherwood finally comes out with their Unertl clone (ain't holdin' my breath), I'm changing out that Weaver. Maybe it needs some rebuilding/TLC, I would like to keep it, but I can really see why early target scope users stayed with external adjustments. So, to answer the poster's original question, no way would I pick a 1903 or 03A3 with a Weaver.
I found in reading the rules that a Weaver k2.5 b60 (1" tube) is also legal. I have one on a 22 and am contemplating cobbling up an A4 clone for these matches. It's clear as a bell and has none of the adjustment problems you mentioned so you may want to hunt one of those up because they are still pretty cheap and apparently a huge step forward from the 330.
The CMP Rules for M1903A4's (including reproductions and clones) permit the following "Issue" scopes.
M73B1 (ed. militarized version of the Weaver 330C - markings, moisture proofing, adjustments)
Weaver 330C (ed. 2.75x)
M73B2 ( ed. The "French Weaver" made by OPL - exceedingly rare.)
M81
M82
M84
And the following "Non-Issue" scopes:
Lyman Alaskan (ed. The Alaskan was approved for issue on the A4 and is referred to or depicted in at least three different documents/publications. None were delivered in time for original production.)
Weaver K2.5
Later in the CMP Forum, at the request of some competitors, authorization was granted to use:
"any 330" (ed. presumably including the commercial scopes like the 330S and 330 Scope - M.8)
Regards,
Jim
Jim in Salt Lake
10-11-2011, 05:07
Hi Phillip, a "newer" Weaver would definitely be an option, better than what I have now. I've got the winter to pick over the options, I'd also like to put a new barrel on the rifle, too. Short term, our club's Vintage Sniper match is this Saturday so I'm using what I've got. One advantage of a target scope with external mounts is that they're more repeatable with adjustments than an old scope with internal adjustments, you'd be able to change elevation from 300 to 600 yards more easily. I'm planning not to raise my elevation adjustment to shoot at 600, I'll use the 5 sighters to find an aiming point high enough to get me on target. I can't begin to tell you what a pain it was to get sighted in at 300 last Saturday. As a comparison, I also sighted in my hunting rifle for an upcoming elk trip. Even with a new load (new bullet and powder) it took me all of 4 shots to get zeroed with a scope that's 70 years newer.
PhillipM
10-11-2011, 06:04
Jim, from my research the difference between the early K2.5's and the later K2.5 60-B is the B's recticle stays centered. There is an improved -C, I don't know what that is as mine is a B.
What is your course of fire?
Good luck this weekend, I'll be shooting vintage bolt with my 1903 MkI @ 200.
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
10-11-2011, 07:26
Last year I had the privilege of shooting with the Marine snipers at Stoney Point. We had every sniper rifle known to mankind to choose from. After the shooting ceased, almost to a man, we preferred the 03A1 w/8X Unertl over any other rifle. These were all real sniper rifles, either active or past. The biggest disappointment was the Drugunov, whose accuracy was very range limited. The one everyone wanted to shoot once? The M1908 W&S equipped 03, which was deadly accurate.
jt
PhillipM
10-11-2011, 07:54
Jim,
Why was the spring omitted? I saw a Marine sniper at a local show years ago for $3500 and should have sold a kidney and bought it. A couple 03 experts now tell me the level of fakery is so advanced they can't authenticate one with 100% certainty.
Jim,
Why was the spring omitted? I saw a Marine sniper at a local show years ago for $3500 and should have sold a kidney and bought it. A couple 03 experts now tell me the level of fakery is so advanced they can't authenticate one with 100% certainty.
There is a paragraph in one of Peter Senich's books that suggests the spring was omitted "because of concern that sand might score the tube". Maybe but given the fact that a piece of grit could also get trapped between the tube and the plungers in the mounts I'm not so sure.
In his 1936 Edition of "Telescopic Rifle Sights" Townsend Whelen advised against using the recoil absorber spring in any rifle "having a recoil greater than about an 8 pound .25-35 rifle, as the pound of the backstroke is liable to damage the front mount." The proponents of the Unertl scope (first on the model 70 then on the 03A1) may have been influenced by this position.
Omitting the spring also allowed the scope to be pushed forward if necessary to clear the bolt.
Regards,
Jim
Jim in Salt Lake
10-12-2011, 08:24
Hi Phillip, Our match is an individual match, where as the formal CMP match is based on a team of two that take turns as shooter and spotter. We're shooting 5 sighters and 15 record shots both at 300 and 600 yards. For the record shots, targets are raised for 20 seconds for each shot, then lowered and scored for 30 seconds. Then they're raised for the next record shot for twenty seconds and so on.... There should be a wide variety of rifles there with scopes that you mention. I plan on looking through some and talking to the owners, I need to move away from my Weaver 330.
And good luck at your match! We had our Springfield match a couple of weeks ago, just had a ton of fun.
fkienast
10-18-2011, 07:26
an M1D, if I can get there.
This 6.5 for sure.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/fa29761f.jpg
Or this .303 as I have done well at 600 with both.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/88f858dd.jpg
Just curious, as the longest I have shot was 200 yrds. But at 600 yrds, doesn't the cross hairs or post completely cover a target? I have several "T" Enfields and those sight posts are pretty wide at the tip, Ray
just had opportunity to shoot my 03A4 at 800 yards using 175 grain smk
good not be happier, only got out of ten ring three times out of fifteen rounds at 800 yards on palma target
however had some issues at 900 yards and have sent scope to parsons scope repair services for complete overhaul and re furbish,
but damn rifle is 69 years old and shoots a better than 10" group with 2.5 alaskan scope
pmclaine
10-20-2011, 10:03
Sorry to go off topic but Parsons is working again?
gawd, i sure hope so, contacted them due to recommendations from Lyman them selves.. talked to them on phone and sent my 1940's vintage lyman alaskan for full rebuild
and they have a up and running web page
pmclaine
10-20-2011, 01:16
I think the old man (meant with respect) passed. I had heard the son was going to keep it going. I tried contacting them awhile ago and got no reply. Good to hear they are running again.
Just curious, as the longest I have shot was 200 yrds. But at 600 yrds, doesn't the cross hairs or post completely cover a target? I have several "T" Enfields and those sight posts are pretty wide at the tip, Ray
I'm not sure I get way you would cover the target with the post?
Ok, another way to put it. Is the tip of the post on a Enfield "T" scope or the cross hairs of a M73b1 scope "fine" enough for pin point shooting at a bulleye target at 600 yds or are they too wide and cover too much of the target to get a good pin point sight picture/aim at a 600 yrd bullseye target to get close groups?
Using the Alaskan Lyman vintage scope at 600 yards i could make out the spotter disk on the ten ring, i was able to 'cover' the spotter disk with the cross hairs, pull the shot and hit the disk
was able to do that four times, this was with a 3" spotter disk so i would imagine that the cross hairs cover 1/2 moa at 600 yards, yes, no??
Never had the problem are you sure your using it correctly?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/95327c96.jpg
Nice rifles. As mentioned, I've only shot to 200 yds and was curious as to the scopes at 600.
Here's mine,
Two more
This photo is too small but I couldn't delete it.
more
Two of these are shown in the above grouping but the middle one is an addition and is all matching including the scope, mount, chest and metal scope case.The bottom one is a Trials sniper, Ray
PhillipM
10-27-2011, 07:52
Ray,
If you do make it to a 600 yard range with one of those rifles be sure you have enough elevation adjustment. It would be bad if you had to aim at some point over the berm to hit the target, I saw it happen Saturday.
Just curious, as the longest I have shot was 200 yrds. But at 600 yrds, doesn't the cross hairs or post completely cover a target? I have several "T" Enfields and those sight posts are pretty wide at the tip, Ray
I still don't understand the question. When I sight on say a soda can at 400 yards I just spin up 400 on my range drum and put the tip of the pointer on the can. Maybe you scope is not set up as it should be. Easy enough to to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/9272b10b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/40aa0421.jpg
Seems to me you did understand the question because you answered my curious post in that the tip doesn't cover the target, :icon_lol: Ray
If you say so,,,
I wish my wife would say that, :banana100: Ray
Don't hold your breath Ray,,LOL.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/b710bc6c.jpg
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